Why Anthropic is The Hottest Company in AI & & How To Use Claude As A Seller w/ Eleanor Dorfman

0:00 What you're looking for when you're hiring for a startup is a founder mentality. You're usually not going to talk about comp too much on the first few calls. Today we have Eleanor Dorfman, head of industries at Anthropic, formerly head of sales at Retool, as well as head of post-sales at Segment. >> When you're an early employee at a startup, you have a million little decisions that you make every day. Everyone is too busy. There's too much going on to be involved in all of them, and you have to trust that they'll make those decisions with the right North Star. When I'm not in the room, like are they going to be the person who takes the trash out when no one's watching?

0:32 Tell us about the different ways you've seen sales people really level up as they're using AI. One incredible seller on my team who tapes Gong transcripts and drops them into Claude code and builds a prototype within an hour of these taste they were talking about. No sales engineer, nothing involved. >> see myself as a sales person. What would you tell people that maybe are thinking the same thing? >> Yeah, I think it's just figuring out what gives you energy at work. If talking to people is draining, sales is probably not for you. But >> Yes. if building relationships, if really understanding what motivates people, if these are the things that you love thinking through, then it's a good thing to at least give it a shot. If somebody has multiple offers, why should they join Anthropic in particular? It is all of the best things about being at a startup and Thanks for tuning in to the Vibe Selling podcast. My name is Chris Beallestras, partner at Vibe Selling. We're a go-to-market advisory, recruiting, and investing in media firm helping seed through series D companies grow. The Vibe Selling podcast is an intersection of go-to-market, AI, and startup topics where we interview the top go-to-market leaders at AI and SaaS companies. Hope you enjoy it. Really enjoyed the episode just now with Eleanor Dorfman, head of industries at Anthropic. Eleanor has had a storied go-to-market career starting her career at education tech company called Clever making her way then into Segment where she had a great 2 and 1/2 year run on the CS team, moving then into a sales role. Light bulb went off, she loved being in sales, then pivots to head of sales at Retool.

2:08 She had a great 4-year run. While on a sabbatical knowing that she wanted to get into AI, Anthropic comes on her radar and she knew it was going to be the next career move for her. So, she's been there a year now starting as head of sales at Cloudera for work and then now head of industries where she leads quite a large go-to-market teams. We talk about how she makes certain career decisions, some tips for sales interviewing. We also talk about how to be a great AI native seller, what are the tools you should be using, how to use Cloud Code even as a non-technical person to up-level your sales game and a lot of great things like that. We also talk about her Mount Rushmore of New York City restaurants.

2:46 She talks about how great UVA is as both my wife and her went there. You know, the topics around how to up-level your game as a seller in AI, how Anthropic and Cloudera thinking about go-to-market and how to really empower sellers in this new era. Think you're really going to enjoy the episode and tune in. You went to UVA. My wife went to UVA. I still have not been to Charlottesville. Ever? No. And we've been we've been we've been together since 2021 and we still haven't been.

3:14 Just life's been I know, it's crazy. >> I told someone I would retire in Charlottesville. So, I strongly recommend a visit. I'm a big Scott Galloway fan and he on his podcast talks about how he's doing a lot of campus tours with his two sons. He said that UVA, he's like, I want them to go to UVA it's the most beautiful campus and I keep hearing that. It's a mix of just like fun people that are smart, that are down-to-earth, that are driven. It's just like the I at least see I met her friends and so I'm sure you would echo that. I would very strongly echo that.

3:44 >> Yeah. >> And it's also I always described it as college with a capital C. So, you got also get a full college experience while being in that environment. >> Yeah. That's all grade school and uh Yeah, I I mean it's funny we're finally meeting for the first time. I feel like I've heard you on so many podcasts and you have quite the the background and I think the one thing I observed like the quote that I remember is just you said something about like careers being uh uh a jungle gym and not a ladder. Did I say that right? Yeah, tell us a little bit more of how you thought through it.

4:13 I mean you've been in some amazing companies and we'll get to that, but um maybe just how you even got into sales. I think you you said you were going to be a in law school, but then made a pivot or yeah. That's a few steps back. Yeah, I started my career as a paralegal and uh there's a a job that's going to change a lot with AI, but I started my career as a paralegal and one time in the middle of the night a partner a very senior partner was trying to tell me the details of a case, which is sort of what you lived for when you were a paralegal at big law, Cravath, where I was a paralegal.

4:42 >> And I was like I all due respect, I I I I do not care. I just need to know how many binders you need. And I'm a super curious person and then that moment when I realized I wasn't remotely curious about what was going on in the case, I knew it was not the career path for me. And I've always been very passionate about public education. I've done gone to public school my entire life including UVA.

5:03 And I went to work for the New York City Department of Education and managed a middle school literacy initiative for a number of years, which is how I found Clever, which is my first startup, an EdTech company, and that was my pivot into tech. Let's talk about the Clever story because I was doing some prep before this. It's I think you mentioned on our podcast you got rejected three times. >> They rejected me a lot. >> Like this is one of these stories where it's like the exception. Is it the exception or what though because there's been times where I didn't get a role and then I follow up and then like a lot of times it's no. You followed up again and again and actually Lauren Schwartz had a similar story on one of her past podcasts. I think when she didn't get into Segment. She's like no, no, no, you have to hire me. Lauren and I share that share that >> the the yeah, just like the the um Yeah, just that grit. Like how do you know like All right, I get it maybe one time, but how do you follow up three times thoughtfully and maybe even just like, "Have you seen this?" I'm sure Anthropic's even a competitive environment and it's like, how can you even thoughtfully do that? At Anthropic, we've hired quite a few people who it's the third or fourth time they've interviewed for a different role. A lot of it is the role candidate timing fit and recognizing that all three have to be true for you to get into a high-growth startup, especially one that's super selective and has their their choice of candidates. With Clever, I went out in person to interview.

6:16 First, they said immediately rejected me out of hand. Then, I flew out in person to interview and they said no and then I called them again and said I would come on as an unpaid intern if they were open to that and I would prove to them that I was who they were looking for. I felt it deep, deep in my bones that it was the right company for me and I was so excited and I was excited to move to San Francisco and so I moved across the country and moved in with my mom's college roommate, Joan.

6:40 >> Wow. For a few months. >> Shout out to Joan. >> Uh shout out to Joan. Shout out to Joan. She actually just got me a wedding gift. Um but we love Joan. We're still in touch uh and um that's how I started at Clever as an unpaid intern and then converted into a customer success role. Got it. Okay, not very traditional path going CS to sales. So, what was that bridge? Like, tell us a little bit more of why even were you thinking about you want to get into sales? Interestingly, I was at Segment at the time and I was on the success ops team. So, I was leading stale customer success and customer success operations and as part of that I'd been loaned out to the sales strategy and ops team to design a reorg when we were spinning out an expansion sales team and our VP of sales at the time I worked really closely with on the design was basically like, "Hey, I know you have a customer-facing background. I did sales for a little bit at Clever when we were launching a new product cuz I thought it'd be fun to figure out how to find the PMF, how to figure out the pricing. I'm very competitive and so I wanted to do the first deal while we were figuring it out." Um and so I'd done a dusting of sales, I would say, uh in terms of trying to find PMF for that new product. And they asked if I would start the sales team and build out the expansion sales team.

7:54 And I said, "No." Because I didn't see myself as a salesperson. I saw myself as a customer success person. I'm so customer oriented. I feel a lot of commitment and ownership over the customer experience. But it was expansion sales, so it felt like the right intersection. And I took a leap and built out that team and had so much fun and have not looked back since. And this is at Clever. This is actually at Segment. So I joined Segment as a customer success CS, then um tell us a little bit more of like how you We actually interviewed Rafe Parker. Uh he was our second episode and it was funny hearing like his decision to go into Segment. Now you came in slightly later, uh but how did you go from Clever to Segment? Like what was the thought process? Cuz obviously awesome company, great talent density. We added them as one of our like GTM mafias of the mid 2010s, so >> I think it was. I really was. Um Segment was interesting. When I was thinking about leaving Clever, there were sort of two things, three things that pulled me to Segment.

8:49 One is actually it's a very similar business model and business to Clever. It's infrastructure and it's middleware. And I love that infrastructure layer. I love working on problems and products that change the way their customers operate. >> Got it. >> Like it isn't a a widget or an app you put on top. It is fundamentally company changing. What about that interest you like specifically? It's a couple of things. You get access to power. You get access to budget. You get access to business critical conversations. The change management has always been fascinating to me. The You feel like you're working on a core problem that can attach to a key company initiative and you're not trying to crack in from the outside.

9:26 Like if you dig in you dig into the guts of that customer and you get to change. Got it. And I really really that's the type of work I really enjoy of how are we going to generate outcomes that actually tangibly impact customers and I mean today the economy. And so that was interesting to me to Segment because I loved Clever and Clever's product and I always thought what would it look like if we could get uh this outside of education and Segment was that opportunity.

9:51 And I always see these career paths as you can only pivot on one foot. And I pivoted on one foot using education to get into Clever and then Clever unlocked my ability to move outside of EdTech and move into developer tooling and infrastructure technology in general. And so I saw that as my opportunity to sort of expand my optionality in terms of the rest of my career and where I could work. And I chose I was chose Segment because I loved the product. I was very familiar with the space and the sale and the type of structure it was because of Clever and Clever's best engineer went to Segment.

10:22 >> Ah. And so that was another I was like this is probably a pretty good Yeah. a pretty good product and uh someone from who I'd worked very closely with at Clever, Tim French, who I'm now three for three with and not yet four which he and I will be chatting about, but he went to Segment as well and so he helped I uh followed him as well. So it was Tim, Daniel, um and then the product in the space. Got it. Okay, so you make your way to Segment, the pivot I like the pivot on one foot. We'll maybe come back to that in a little bit as it relates to like career decisions, but you go to Segment and you start in the CS group, but then you start to pivot into the expansion sales team. So you kind of talked about that a little bit. Um what did you like know instantly when you were hey, actually maybe a little bit closer to sales cuz it sounds like eventually you make your way more to like new logos at some point, but Once I got into it, I loved it. It was such a fit for me. It was I the adrenaline rush, the problem solving, I love the context switching.

11:19 It building I love building out new teams and I love seeing gaps in the org and designing solutions and moving quickly and making decisions and testing and failing and learning and trying something new. And so it was the combination of getting to build this org and start to see it be successful and start to to to really snowball. That was so much fun and then I just genuinely enjoyed the work itself. I loved working with reps. I loved Honestly, I loved the way you could just track it. You had targets to hit. You had things to map backwards from. You had such a concrete thing to work towards and I loved taking the chaos that was go stand up an expansion sales team and figuring out figuring it out and turning it into structure. It sounds like everyone has a lot of people I speak to at Segment said how like awesome it was to work there.

12:05 But then you end up leaving for Retool which obviously was a great does that even come about if things are going so well? You finally get into sales. You're loving it. What's that pivot? Oh, we got acquired by Twilio. Got it. And So how how long And that makes sense because you're at a larger company. You're like, "Hey, I'm more of a startups person. I want to be in that building phase." How What was that gap between acquisition or at least your notice of the acquisition to when you started at Retool?

12:31 A month. Okay. Well, that's quick. You're like, "I got to get back in the startup land." I I love startups and I love startups and I really wanted to take everything I'd learned at Segment and go do it one more and go do it again. And so it was that plus the pull of Retool was really strong for me. In terms of Again, it was another the early days were an incredibly talented environment. So I was really drawn to the people at Retool. I was extremely drawn to the product. Retool had like a great product at a great time and great product market fit.

12:59 And I was really drawn to the taking open-ended developer platform and go figure out how to sell it. And it to me it was taking everything that I loved and that I'd been learning at Segment on the sales side and being able to go start over at Retool and learn how to build a sales team from scratch. >> Got it. And then three AEs were there. You come in as the founding sales leader or what was the entry point?

13:18 >> coming in as a founding number two. So I came in as the number two and built out the sales team. Got it. Yeah, had a great four-year run there. Had a good four-year run. And uh yeah, shout out to Mike Young, he's the valedictorian of my high school out on Long Island, New York. Uh so, a lot of great people. George Kondara, who Love George. We just did an event with them uh Emergents and Vibe Scaling in September. So, got to know him through Kaylan and like I know he helped out in the very early days like sales advisor. So, yeah, yeah.

13:43 Rachel on all the way through. George was a top rep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You guys have like it's just awesome people that And now when we are working with like dev tool companies, infrastructure companies, it's like the first name. So, you guys have yeah. Kudos to you. You guys built an amazing like talent density there and it's it's Everybody asks us, "Can you get the Retool folks?" So, while you're at Retool, I think one thing that's really interesting, a lot of people come to us and they ask like, "Hey, I've been in sales for a little bit, but VC interests us." From what I remember, you were like doing some scouting while you were there a little or Yeah, no, I'm still doing some scouting.

14:14 >> you're doing it. So, when did you start to think of like, "Okay, I still want to be in sales full-time as an operator, but then also dip my toe into VC." What was the first inkling of that? It was working with Yasmine at Spark, um who's on the board of Anthropic now. Um and Yasmine and I met and had been partnering on a few things and she asked if I'd be interested in it. And my actual thought at the time was, "Yes, cuz this will stop me from quitting and going to an earlier-stage startup because I am not in the position right now where I want to go early early again, but I have to scratch that itch somehow cuz it's one of my favorite things to think through." And so, to me it was a great balance of seeing what's coming, working with up-and-coming founders, putting a little skin in the game, giving them some advice, and being able to take the hard-fought lessons that I had learned and work with other people on them. Yeah, on that, like what are some of the biggest piece of advice that founders when you you know, either make a mistake or they come to you continually asking? There's so many.

15:10 There's a lot when you work with them on early deals where everyone gets wrapped around the axle of having an exciting new logo, but really they don't have a strong champion and they'll spend 9 months on a POC that's going nowhere. And if you've done that before, it's easy to spot within 3 minutes, and you just have to stop people from wasting their time. >> A lot of work on pricing, how do you tie price to value, how do you test that, how do you think about how your pricing scales, and how do you make sure your value scales to commensurately with that. Profiles for early sales leaders and how to recognize who's going to be a great like radical ownership high impact early sales leader.

15:47 Who's going to be someone who can scale from zero to one, one to 10, 10 to 100. And how do you recognize that early in the process? How do you set up your early operational infrastructure? How do you know when to bring in RevOps, when to bring in sales enablement? What does good look like for an AE? How to not over rotate on are they technical enough, which is one of my biggest pet peeves. Um Tell me more on that. What yeah, what do you mean by that? There's this and especially at technical founders when they're hiring their first go-to-market leaders, there's this bias towards they have to be so technical, and it just doesn't mean anything.

16:19 >> And what does that even mean? We wrote it so I wrote a whole article on it. It's about 800 words that said, what does it even mean to be technical in sales? And there's this feeling of elitism almost a little bit. Almost like it's a proxy for intelligence sometimes when and it's so depending like is an you know, deep tech infrastructure versus an API versus like and there's different leveling of it. Like how do you think through and it just keep pulling on that thread, I guess. I mean, I think for me it depends on what problem you're trying to solve. Like to me it's an easy button to say I don't want to hire this person and it's a little bit lazy and it's a reason to not say why. And if you pull it back, when you're looking for someone technical, it can be do they have a sense of the product? Do they understand how all the pieces fit together? Do they understand the problem we're solving for our customers? Do they understand why it matters? Do they understand why it's hard to do today? Do they understand why that it being hard to do today is a problem for their business. Like these are the things that are required to be good in an AE role in a technical product. And it's also a proxy for selling to developers.

17:17 And so a lot of the times it's just I don't think developers would like them. It usually means to me they're too salesy. Totally. And so if you did a dent, is it that they're too salesy? Just say it, they're too salesy and you're looking for Or are they not smart enough Are you Is IQ one of the top four things you're looking for and how do you assess for IQ in a way that doesn't require them to know SQL? It's almost like an energy level sometimes, too. This person could be smart, but if they're too like I don't know. I've gotten that feedback personally where it's just like I'm too like and then like hey develop you like being able to match that other person's energy is like super important when selling to developers.

17:48 >> Exactly. Like can you read the room? And I think a dent for selling to developers, it's you have to basically have to know what you're talking about. So a lot of the time to me it's are they willing to get into the product? Are they willing to do the hard thing? Are they willing Are they intimidated by the product? If yes, not a fit. But are they going to work well with our product team? Like early stage, you have to work hand-in-hand with product to build the product. You're probably just post PMF and there's so much more room to go. So do you understand the opportunity for what needs to be built next? Can you see around corners a little bit and know where the you know, landmines are going to be in the sales cycle? Like all of these things that would it could be to me not technical enough is a euphemism for all of these things and it's lazy thinking and I'd rather you just say the thing. They're too salesy, they don't meet our intelligence bar, they're not curious enough, they're intimidated by the product. I think it's just a not a culture fit, which is a completely valid position as well, but it's it could be any one of these things and the all of them are important. So how does somebody what does somebody do or not cuz this is a common theme that we hear from sales leaders when they're interviewing the ones that we work with at our firm is we didn't feel like they showed enough curiosity and everybody has a little bit of a different answer.

18:58 How do you know what's something that a good candidate does well and doesn't do well other than like of course they don't ask questions, but even the ones that just miss that curiosity bar, what do you see that candidates kind of lack a little bit? >> For me it's the ones who's done all the research beforehand, who knows about me, who knows about the team, who knows about the leadership, who knows the product, who knows the landscape, who's coming with an opinion that they're strongly, you know, strong opinion weakly held, who's the quality of the questions vary.

19:26 Like I >> What's like a really good one? Like what would be or some components of It's so context specific. >> Right. Someone the other day who I'd start started to write off asked a question was like, "How are you thinking about X, Y, and Z?" And it was a topic that had kept me up the night before because I had been started struggling to think through how do we solve this problem? And I was like, "Okay, they found the signal really quickly." Like they hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the problem we need to be thinking about right now.

19:53 And to me that showed good instincts if that's where their brain went immediately. And so I And I had already submitted a no halfway through the interview and paid the reviewer and I was like, "Pull back the no. Pull back the no. I'm a yes." And so it it's that. It's do they do they find the signal through the noise or are they asking the questions they think they should be asking or do the questions demonstrate a genuine curiosity that shows their thinking has gone deeper than surface level? And if I see someone thinking up here, I'm not interested. I don't have time. We don't have the time to waste as a company to hire people who think down here and need to be pushed one or two layers down. I need the people who will go one layer, two layers, three layers, or four layers down on their own because of their own curiosity and their own initiative. Got it. That's super helpful. The So you're at Ritual for four years. I'm sure you're getting hit up by every executive search firm in SF and New York to be like, "Hey, come well, New York based, but come and join our you know, AI company." How did you think through when you were going to make the move into AI? And we'll start getting into like what why Anthropic in a sec, but I was really excited about AI immediately. And then I don't really excited, but all of the startups were in SF. No one was hiring in New York for a bit, and my family's here, and Where are you from? I'm from the DC area.

21:11 >> DC area, okay, got it. >> But, my husband and two stepsons are here, and so this is very much home base. You're staying here. And so I'm staying here. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're slowly starting to get some of the vertical eye solutions that are HQ'd here, but still I don't know, most of our clients are at least two-thirds of them sit down in SF. And like the early stage, so >> I have to wait for >> Yeah. for them to be ready for me. Yeah, yeah. Got it. So, it was like, hey, I was interested, but like things are still really great at Retool, so I'm going to be very picky on my next move, and >> And it's I said it's candidate fit.

21:41 >> It's like candidate market timing fit. All of these have to work that has to be the right company, has to be the the right role, the right candidate, the right time, and so I knew pretty quickly that I wanted to go to one of the labs, and >> that? I just think it's a moment in time, and I think I've said this before, so I'll say it publicly, but if you have an opportunity at this moment in time, if you have a still set, and if you have the opportunity to add value and impact, and to be inside one of these labs at this moment in time, you have to take it.

22:12 >> Yeah. It's too It's just this sea change, and it feels like such a privilege that you're still set, and in some way add value to the mission and the outcome. >> It's funny, I'm going to give you a little bit of right now because I don't know if you saw the Matt Turk the First Mark partner in VC. He had a tweet that I think he was not trying to be funny, and he said, "If you can get into an OpenAI or Anthropic, do that over getting your MBA." Or something like I'm paraphrasing. And it's like, yeah, no Of course, if you have like the opportunity. I think what you guys are doing is incredible. I mean, I'll speak though for like my network. It's really hard to get into these companies. So, I I think it's like I'm genuinely curious of what can somebody do if they don't necessarily have that network, but they're a skilled seller, and they really want to join and they might have to do three or four times like you did, like Lauren did, right? Like so, that's good to know that hey, it might be a slow play. You're going to you might get to know right now, but in 6 months, maybe you'll get a second now and then even in a year. So, you play the long game a little bit. But, tell me the audience like what are some ways to get creative? This could be just be generally for interviewing. I mean, we're interviewing someone right now who I'd spoken to 6 months ago and was like, "I'm not a right fit."

23:20 And they just kept following up in different ways and basically made the case that they felt their life's work was leading leading towards working at Intrepid and working on this this problem for this specific role and I was genuinely so moved. I went to the hiring manager and I was like, "Someone who has this level of commitment and ownership and part of working you have it you have to go through a little bit of ego death because you're working on such important things that your ego has no place there. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. All that matters is how can I contribute the most at this moment in time?"

23:54 And this person showed that and to me having that mindset and that authenticity and that level of grit and diligence and understanding of this is what your role is going to be inside of this company, it's irrelevant. It's it's you have an ability to contribute right now and you care enough to follow up and you have put your ego completely to the side is is so important. So, it's figuring out what is the skill set you have and how to add value. Figuring out how to articulate that and then diligently articulating it in every avenue that you can right up to the line of harassment and like maybe stop a little bit before, but I I read all the most of the LinkedIn outreach. Like, I will respond to a lot of it and I will always pass it on to a recruiter if I am genuinely sparked by the content. If it isn't "Hey Eleanor, I'd love to pick your brain for 15 minutes we both have E in our first name." Or something like that then I mean, that's a whole new level of AI slop if that's happening or That one hasn't worked out that bad, but I've had quite a few where I've like probably one out of every five I send to a recruiter and I'm like, "Hey, this this this note really got me. Can we reach out to them?"

25:04 >> said the word ego a couple times in that and I've heard this from other sales leaders when they hire. What What are things that candidates do that show that? Maybe ones that almost just made it and then they said something or like what are Yeah, what are those things? >> I mean, this is going to get real tactical, but Yeah, yeah, no, I'm very curious. Again, it's This isn't for This is for me right now and I felt this way at Ritual, too, and I would say this is actually probably comparable across startups because what you're looking for when you're hiring for a startup is a founder mentality.

25:32 You're looking for someone you're trusting like a founder or an early leaders are trusting the most important thing in sales people. They're representing the brand that they the usually their life's work. They're representing it externally and that is not a small amount of trust that you're putting in a person. >> Yeah. And so looking for someone who understands the gravity of that and it sounds a little ridiculous, but that that is fundamentally at the end of the day the gravity. So, when you're looking for someone who can understand and represent the gravity of that, they're usually not going to talk about comp too much on the first few calls.

26:07 They're I had someone the other day on a first call or a first interview call used the word I more times than I've ever heard anyone >> even like that wording of using I too much. >> I was like, "I statements are really important when you're talking about your feelings." I statements are not important when you're talking about how you're going to contribute to this company. Right, right, right, right. >> I like when you talk about your your current role, I need to hear the we. I need to hear that you understand you're part of a much bigger picture and that you my we say play from the front of the jersey a lot and and I don't like Is that an Eleanora-ism or is that an Anthropic thing?

26:43 >> I'm going to try to say that. >> that you have some of these things. >> quite a few Eleanora-isms. I'm going to say I'm going to credit Sam Warboff, uh my my colleague at Anthropic >> Got it. who with this one. That's a Sam That's a Sam bumper sticker. >> Play for the front of the jersey. >> for that and I'm using an anti-sports metaphors, but it's just a really quick way of getting to the point, which is he you have to play for the front of the jersey. We're we're at a company that's reinventing itself.

27:06 I would say every 3 months, but it feels like every 3 weeks sometimes and any hyper growth and any startup is going to look radically different in 3 and 6 months and if you can't come in with the mindset and know that they're going to be adaptable and but we're zooming out even further when you're an early employee at a startup, you have a million little decisions that you make every day and a founder and a man everyone is too busy.

27:30 There's too much going on to be involved in all of them and you have to trust that they'll make those decisions with the right North Star and to me that's the key point of the ego piece is do I trust that this person when I'm not in the room like are they going to be the person who takes the trash out when no one's watching and like then takes the trash out of the room. Are they going to optimize for the company and the customer before themselves and can I do I trust that completely? Yeah, those are all really good things. How do you So you're at Retool for a while, what was the actual and then I'd love to then jump into how I can use Claude better, how AI native sell are all about what you guys are building at Anthropic, but before we get into that like how did you why Anthropic? What did that specifically tell us even about the spark? Was it a former colleague that was like Elan, are you got to get here? Yes, it was Tevinder Grewal, yeah. My lifelong partner in crime. This is also our third company together.

28:20 Um and so >> a couple people. I've seen the LinkedIn post. I think it was some of the Retool folks. I think it was Matt and like they were like oh this is another one that I'm you're running back again. There was a lot of those things. So it sounds like >> There's a few where we're there's a few where we're three for three. There is quite there's a few that segment Retool Anthropic combination. Martin, Jade Yeah. Emily Gray uh there there's quite a a good crew there that again were people who I trust completely to make the right decision for the right reasons, no matter what.

28:52 And when they're wrong, I'm confident it was for a good reason and that they'll learn and that again, that level of trust is you can't buy that. Um well, I tried to take a sabbatical. I really thought I could. The plan was to take 6 months off. I was exhausted. I Knowing that you were not going to be back at Retool or hey, I might come back to Retool, how did you >> No, I was leave without a job for like 6 months.

29:12 >> To go into AI of some sort, but To but mainly just reset. I It is a dead sprint and it had been 11 years at that point, 12 years of working in tech and had never having more than 2 weeks off. >> Wow. Uh startups are just so emotionally draining because you're so all in. Um and so I was going to take 6 months off. It felt like a free fall leaving without a job and everyone kept saying to me like, oh, this must be so amazing. You must be so excited.

29:41 And and I was like, I'm terrified. This is awful. I feel sick to my stomach most days and then it settled out and then it then it genuinely was amazing. Um but Kevin reached out and I started talking to Anthropic pretty quickly and so then >> into your you started times going at 6 months is here, right? Day one's here. How long in? Three 2 months and 21 days. Got it. Uh And what did you do during that first 2 months and 21 days? I slept a lot. I traveled. I mean, I read a bunch of books. I took myself out to lunch most days. Uh I had a lot of like French onion soup and a martini at different great restaurants in New York.

30:18 >> What are what's some of your top restaurants in New York? >> love like a Gramercy Tavern lunch. >> Oh my god. That's uh my wife and I's like favorite spot. It's On our first date um I asked my wife, I was like, this is the most basic answer, but what's my favorite burger in the city? And she's like, Gramercy Tavern. I was like, am I that am I that basic, you know? So, but it's true. It's amazing. Just the vibe of it it's just incredible.

30:39 >> It's a great lunch spot. It It is. >> Great. Via Carota, just great lunch spot. Yeah, yeah. And so, I took some time off for me. Anthropic. I chased Anthropic. You have to So, you have to chase Anthropic. I really There's something very special about Anthropic's culture, and I started my career in public education. I'm very drawn to a mission-oriented company. >> Yeah, tell me more about that. What about their culture you think stands out and how you would articulate it? I think that it is a values-led culture, and it is a company that is consistent in its values, and will make the tough calls for its values, and I find that incredibly inspiring. And the privilege for me of working at Anthropic is that you don't have to make any tradeoffs from a career perspective.

31:20 You talk about in sales, are you learning or are you earning, and which one are you optimizing for at which stage in your career? And early on, it's it should be learning, and then you have the years where you're optimizing for earning, and it can shift back and forth. And this was an opportunity where learning, I think it's going to be an incredibly valuable and successful company, and so you're learning, you're earning, and to do all of that in a company where you feel so values-aligned and so inspired by the leadership, to not have to trade off on any of those is so And to work with the caliber of people Totally. You guys are great.

31:54 >> it's it's unbelievable. And so, I saw Anthropic, felt that that is what it was, and that there was nowhere else I I really wanted Yeah. Um so, I think you guys are building an an incredible like culture. I've gotten coffee with a bunch of my friends that are over there. Uh same with some of the other labs, and then yeah, it reminds me of what you guys built at Retool. It reminds me of like the Stripe plaid culture, um very much so. I mean, I can spend probably 2 hours of like you just nitpicking my Claude usage and how I can use that better, but I I something that we were like talking about before this was like this AI concept of like the AI-native seller, just where you see things going.

32:29 I guess the way I'd love to take it is just Listen, Claude, from my understanding, from API perspective, it's great for coding use cases. It's really empowering a lot of the the developer tooling that's out there in the AI native code gen, but >> and beyond that, I I do think the next generation of incredible startups, I genuinely think it's going are going to be built on Claude, and I think that's the API opportunity. That and then the digital native companies and how they're expanding their revenue and their product suite and like increasing their own TAM um by being built on Claude. So, that the API opportunity is is pretty insane.

33:05 >> Outside of the uh hey, it can code really well, what are some other reasons why like where you guys spike um on the API usage? Everybody knows that it's good for the coding use case, but what are some of the other ones that maybe people wouldn't know of that it's it's good at? Complex workflows, anything that requires I would say like we have a very significant investment in financial services and health care. >> that. Yeah, yeah, and that really shows up in how the the products um legal, I would say, is another area where we're super strong. So, it's more of the sort of complex workflows is where Claude really shines. Okay. And then on the app layer, what I've seen using it and we'll pivot into like I'm curious how people are using it for sales use cases and getting into this concept of AI native seller, but uh I think it's the best writing Yeah.

33:48 product. There's something about when I put um my granola transcripts and I say write it in email, it gets it to the closest of how a human would write it. It Is that something that was like should like how did you guys crack that? Okay, first of all, I am not on the research team. >> All right. So, I wouldn't even pretend to know how to genuinely answer that question. >> Yeah. But, I think it's a couple of things. I think Claude's soul, Claude's personality was part of the day one design of the product, and it's something that's been top of mind ever since.

34:19 >> What is this Claude? I I don't know the actual origin. It's the There's a an ethicist and philosopher who was part of the founding team and has done an immense and like fairly comprehensible amount of thinking about Claude's personality. >> Oh, wow. Okay. >> to build that. And so, um she's a remarkable person. And then Claude is for work. So, I think there's these models are not they're grown. And the way you grow them and the things you the way you reward them and the things that you teach them they're going to be better at the way that they were directed. If the models were designed to be incredibly engaging consumers for consumers and to keep your attention, that might tell you no, that might push back, that might value accuracy over engagement, that might optimize for a clear communication over an a then an engaging response. So, it's it's thinking about that. Like all of the just the vast amount that goes into how these models operate. I mean, it's again to the learning point more I learn more and more about it every day.

35:19 >> But Well, I'm glad I don't need to like learn about how the sausage gets made. You guys just give me this great yeah, app and it's been it's been awesome so far. I I use it. I mean, it's just I'm curious when the I don't know. I'm just like copy paste a lot of my granola transcripts and then like what are the use cases that I talk the audience that's listening to this are sales people. They're AEs, they're BDRs, they're SDRs and they're sales leaders that are super AI curious.

35:41 Everybody's like using it to help write emails, but tell us about the different ways you've seen sales people really level up as they're using AI. There are so many and we are just beginning to scratch the surface. I have one um incredible seller on my team who takes Gong call Gong transcripts and drops them into Claude code and builds a prototype within an hour of the use case they were talking about. >> Oh, wow. Okay. No sales engineer, nothing involved cuz Claude code has gotten that good. I have a rep who has built a set of stills, so Claude stills and for all of his prospects has built brand design libraries for the stills and can show them live here's what it looks like. Wait, that's really cool.

36:19 Yeah. When we produce a deck, here's what it looks like when we produce it with this still and he has built stills for each of his prospects. Um most of the reps have a Claude project in place for every single one of their deals. And so, all of the Slack data, all of the notes data, all of the call data, all of the Salesforce data is all in there, and you can just have conversations with Claude about how you want to move the deal. And you go really deep, and then Claude does your call coaching, Claude does your follow-ups.

36:43 Claude is also finding the gaps you missed in the opportunity, and Claude is I've been told Claude's the best boss I've ever had. Which is true, Claude's the best boss I've ever had. It's pretty remarkable. There's I mean, you could have an end-to-end workflow. Claude Claude can listen to the transcript, draft the follow-up, draft the follow-up meeting, ping the Slack channel. Like it can pre- truly elevate you as a seller into an executive, where you're just doing the most important things.

37:10 Like, I actually find that it really humanizes the work and makes you focus on the things that are most important. >> Yeah, super interesting. You guys should come out with that. If there's not You've been coming out with like courses and stuff. If there's one for like AI in sales, that would be >> I'm going to We'll we'll we'll work on that. >> Yeah, that'd be awesome, I think. And like some of these use cases that were It's it's cool, cuz if I hear you right, it's like an AE might be on a call with a developer of how to build something, and then it's a matter of that taking it back into Claude code and then creating like this is how it would look in like a web interface.

37:39 >> yeah. With Claude >> I think that's the thing that a lot of AEs aren't doing is that they're they're not using the You do some discovery, you understand what they what they're trying to do, you put it into Claude code, it's that good, where it will then build the app. And you can launch an app in many and sell >> that. I got to I got to try that out. So >> cool. It's interactive. It's a working app. And when you come like when you've been in selling apps for a while, it's pretty mind-blowing.

38:05 Yeah. So, you you led a team at both Segment and Retool. How is like, whether it's leading a team, the thought about it from like a territories planning, from an efficiency metrics perspective, are AEs doing more with less? Like, how is I guess my overall question here is like, and I love to pivot to this, how is selling and managing a team different in the AI era than it was at the last couple companies or in the SaaS era?

38:31 I mean it's completely different and it's it's hard to I think when you're in it, it's hard to sort of pull out and reflect like how it's different and what's different about just the growth environment that we're in right now or that you you have AI as a tool and it and it's all happening at the same time so I guess it's completed and it's all of the above. I am doing so much more with less. I can do so many things on my own that I used to have to rely on partners for. I can get my own data. I can build my own visualization. I can inspect my own territories.

38:59 I can get insights. I can with MCPs. I can be in a bajillion Slack channels at once and know what's going on in every deal. So it's rethinking what's my own operating cadence. It's looking for the AI native in qualities in sellers. Are they willing to use all this this new tooling? Are they going to take advantage of it? Are they going to connect with their own productivity? Are they going to take the initiative to go learn it themselves? Again, it's another angle to assess curiosity and willingness to change and adapt.

39:28 >> that in interviews at all? Like hey, how are you using it and then like what are So give us a little bit of that of cuz this is a common thing that um I was and when I was at Metromile I was hired by the old CRO at Zapier and now he had a whole post of how they test for AI fluency in their sales interviews and I'm curious um I have to read that. I actually don't know what the answer to that is. But he had some sort of a framework like answer one, answer two, answer three. Do you guys ask that? Like how do you test for that? Honestly, if someone doesn't come to an interview with here's what I did with Claude, I don't think you need a formal test. Like it's Right. I'm like if they don't And even level if they they're using the API as well and say hey, I went in the docs and you're like okay, this person's like technical >> they using Claude Code? I've had a lot of people send me Claude projects or send me something that they built with Claude Code and I love when they send me stuff.

40:13 >> like it's too competitive to get an Anthropic. That's like the bare you have to be doing that. Like it's like Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like you're Yeah, I was going to say I don't think we have a We definitely don't have I mean someone else might have a framework. I don't have a framework, but >> Right, right. the entire team uses Claude so heavily. What are some other tooling that you stands out to you whether it's sales tech tooling or other tools outside of Anthropic that you've seen folks use? And let's actually cancel out Granola as well. You feel >> just going to say Yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:39 Granola is the one like WhisperFlow and Granola. I was just going to say WhisperFlow too. Yeah, that's a a good one. And you guys are using Gong? And uh I'm trying >> very happily. >> Got it. Okay. I'm a big Gong customer. >> I feel like you get 80/20 there. If you're using Granola, I wrote an article on 17 tools that um I'm using in go-to-market to make myself more productive. I'm trying to like think about what were some of the other ones, but a lot of them were related to when I was building my blog. So, it's not necessarily sales related, but I think WhisperFlow uh for And for folks that aren't listening, if you are not using a hot key like WhisperFlow to speak into Claude so that you don't have to type. I mean we're really getting like it's it's luxury to have these tools as well.

41:18 >> you can you can be productive while you're walking to your next meeting. Like it's a pretty you can have a Claude running in the back. You got Claude doing something while you're walking to a meeting. Like it is I can do three things at the same time and still be completely present in the meeting I'm in. And so it's That's right. It's such a We're in the middle of such a paradigm shift where I'm very confident my step-sons will look back and think it's hilarious that the things I used to do at work. Like Yeah. that you used to do what with a spreadsheet? You used to manually update Salesforce? You used to have to submit a forecast? You know, just I mean they probably won't be going into sales, but I'd like to think that they >> said this now twice actually where it was uh I didn't see myself as a salesperson and then you said, "Oh, they might not be going into sales." I'm curious like maybe even that initial comment when you said it like "Oh, I didn't see myself as a salesperson." Now you're like have such a storied sales career. What would you tell people that maybe are thinking the same thing, but are out of a finance job and they don't like it or something.

42:14 Well, it's just figuring out what gives you energy. It's like it's I was conflict it I use the word conflicting too much, but I get a lot of energy from talking to people. I get a lot of energy from problem-solving. I get a lot of energy from impact and feeling ownership and that's those three things are like a huge part of sales. It's just problem-solving before customers. It's problem-solving internally. It's figuring out the problem and bringing the right solution.

42:40 And it's I mean, I love bossing people around. That's sort of that's sales. So, yeah, I think it's just figuring out what gives you energy at work. And if talking to people is draining, sales is probably not for you, but if building relationships, if really understanding what motivates people, if these are the things that you love thinking through, then it's a good thing to at least give it a shot. Yeah. You it's it's funny that you said what will the generation look back on and kind of make fun of us for.

43:08 Do you listen to My First Million at all? No. So, it's a podcast by two like entrepreneurs that like they both started newsletters and they were like had exits in their business and now they just kind of shoot the a little bit and talk this is part of the inspiration for this. I wanted to do like 20 sales, which you you've been on before, but I want Harry to do that more often. I want to do that as weekly and then the casualness of My First Million a little bit. They were saying how every generation looks at like the last generation like you guys did that. So, it's like you know, back in the late 1800s, we were all working in farms and then it was like we got out of the farms and then in the factory and that was like this is the cushy job. in the factory into like the offices and then it was like oh, what is it? The the generation that behind looks at the front generation mean the ones that were in factories then say, what are you even doing all day? Is that even a real job? You're like on this and it's just funny to see it both ways, right? Like the new generation it feels like they have so much better. The old generation is kind of a little bit bitter, but also just like um the whole spreadsheet thing.

44:02 Like you guys used to have to like make these yourself PowerPoints. I say this as a former consultant that I remember that same day I had the same light bulb moment that you did. I was like, this can do it's you don't have to compromise. It's better, faster, and cheaper than my job when I was at Oliver Wyman as a consultant. I also wasn't that good of a consultant, but it's so crazy Isn't it just crazy to think about? Just like a lot of this knowledge work is just going to change. Totally. Just so much.

44:27 >> Which one of those use cases excites you the most? Like And by the way, your role now is You You've had two roles at Anthropic. It was like growth for work and then head of industries. What What specifically in >> Many roles at Anthropic. A lot of it is is >> like six lives at Anthropic, right? Yeah. >> is I I do a lot of the zero to one. So, we Here's a new problem we want to go solve. Like, can you go get it to the like go build it? Yeah, you said this you you see yourself as less of a sales builder, more of a company builder. I would say that. I I definitely see myself because I think there are again, what's your your superpower? What are you best at? I see people who are just unbelievable leading sales teams, and I learn so much from them, and I see I love surrounding myself with people who are better than me in things and going and figuring out how to get something from zero to one, one to 10, to get it scaling, and then go find the person who's the best at it in the world. I see. And that's what I really get a lot of energy from. I love that. But one thing that you just said that the other I mean, I I work does a work does a lot right now, and so I spend most nights >> I saw your messages. I was like, it's going to be anxiety thinking about that.

45:32 >> When I get home on You know that's possible. got to get from the day and getting things done. Yeah. And my stepson the other day was had I'd been working from home, so he heard me all day, then he saw me on Slack at night, and he was like, is your job just to chat? And I was like, I guess. >> Yeah. My job is just to chat. >> Yeah. I like to think there's a lot more to it, but at the end of the day, yes, that is what I'm doing all day. I am chatting. Just hey, but that's energy.

45:59 You said it yourself, it's energizing. You're talking to people, sometimes virtually, a lot of times on Slack, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. What tactically, before we go into maybe some rapid-fire questions that I'm genuinely curious about, is how does like all right, you guys work very large deals in Anthropic? How is it different now and how people are buying every So like you listen to Jason Lemkin and Harry on their weekly podcast and they're saying everybody's in market, people are buying, people are experimenting. But that has to that comes with the benefit of there's a lot of deals to be had. But then there's got to be some challenges and maybe things that are different or that you maybe had to change as a sales leader when you come in and help close these enterprise deals. Can you talk a little bit about how you've seen enterprise selling different now than in previous on the buyer side, like how they're talking about things and thinking about things?

46:50 I'm trying to think of a good answer. I'm not as in the weeds on a lot of this and I I still am, but I'm doing a lot of the building behind the scenes and like how do we create how do we remove all the roadblocks and how do we create the incentives and the structure and the processes to make a user successful as quickly as possible and On that thread, is there anything that comes to mind of how you used to think about things? Maybe a thing you changed your mind on or something around capacity playing or territories?

47:17 >> enterprise sales. I mean everyone the I I don't think about productive capacity right now. Right now it's irrelevant. The The only thing that matters is learning. And like are we maximizing our output? But I'm not like oh I I don't need to be I haven't said the words productive capacity. We I now that I've said that we'll probably start talking about it, but it's funny. I was talking to one of my leaders a few months ago and he was like I know that the the productivity and the capacity and I was like no throw out everything.

47:43 So I just yes, let's throw out everything you used to worry about. The only thing that matters >> Yeah, what's the north star? >> is are we learning as quickly as possible? Are we finding sparks of repeatability? And when we find them are we doubling down because no one knows what they're doing right now. And so my whole thing is can you get to 51% conviction? Is it a two-way door? Great, go try it. The learning is just as valuable as getting it right.

48:07 And so that's the mindset right now. So it's a very different approach to building a sales org because it isn't this, okay, I put one rep in and then this happens. It's I'm going to put one rep here, one rep here, one rep here. I know they're all amazing and I'm going to see what happens. I had a reorg in Q2 that we had to symbolically archive Slack channels for because it was such a disaster. And then we'd shifted things up in Q3 and things really took off. And so a lot of it is no one's done this before, so can you be fearless? Can you experiment? Can you learn as quickly as possible? And again, that's why the curious, high ownership AEs are the ones who are really, really nailing it right now because they're helping us company build as well. Yeah. All right. Well, for those listening who are prepping for their Anthropic interview, there you go.

48:51 You have some at least ways to >> into it. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Uh so, when I talk to my friends, I'll even just call it out of like Stripe, Plaid, a lot of these like mafias that we called out in the mid-2010s, they're all like they come to us cuz we run a recruiting firm with a lot of AI-native companies. And if somebody has multiple offers, for why should they join Anthropics uh in particular? I think it is the learning, earning, and values. Like if you want if you are someone who is motivated to work on something that is so much bigger than yourself and to surround yourself with incredibly curious people who care a lot about the world and the impact of their work, then it's the place for you.

49:31 It is an incredibly different group of people, um but when there's a shared sense of ownership and responsibility and excitement that you're all in it together, that's what makes being at a startup so fun. And to be able to have everything that is special about being in a startup, to know that there is an infinite number of problems to solve and things to figure out to know that you're working with people who you can trust completely because you're all in it for the right reasons, to know that like you're part of this thing and you're it is it it is all of the best things about being at a startup and being able to do it at an unprecedented scale. Like I always joke to my dad I feel like I'm playing with the house's money. Like it's if you have an idea and it's a good idea, you can go do it. Like and that's another actual mindset shift to your earlier question from previous companies.

50:23 Like I was like I came from the austerity era. Like I didn't make a decision without acknowledging what the 10 trade-offs were. And now the trade-offs look different because the most valuable resource inside of Anthropic is mind share. So if you're going to go get mind share, you don't have a good idea, you make your pitch and you run. And so that's the trade-off is mind share and focus, but it's a yes and. Yes, we're going to try this and we're going to try this and we're going to try this and we're going to manage it and we're going to figure out what works and we're not going to worry about anything other than are we learning and are we then making the right investments.

50:57 Before it was if I'm going to hire this AE, I can't hire this, I can't do this, I can't do this. So if I'm going to do this, I expect 300k this quarter, but I'll need 500k in February, which means I'll need 1 million in top of funnel and I don't spend any time doing that math anymore. >> super interesting. Um all right, I'm sold. I would I would choose I I I love what you guys are building on the API side, but definitely on the on the app side. So it's been fun to watch.

51:17 >> The other thing I would say is we're an enterprise first company, so >> Right. Yeah, I see the graph. You guys are crushing it right now in the enterprise. And it's where again where can you be valuable? As an enterprise seller, that's got to be a really strong pitch when you're when you have people with other offers. Okay, totally makes sense. >> want to go where you're in the center of the action? Like we're a B2B, we're enterprise.

51:36 If you want to be in the center of the action, this is the place. >> Yeah. I think that's that one is the one that if you're speaking to an enterprise seller, that one that one would definitely hit home. Um some rapid fire questions. So, I want your take of just some of this. So, this is on our podcast not any companies that you've ever been at, but what are some of the two or three go-to-market orgs that you've admired over the let's say the last 15 years? Data Dog, I think built a really they were really good they were effective I think.

52:07 Dan and now Sean did such a great job at building the machine. I think that they had some of the tightest sales product alignment I've ever seen. I've always really admired that. I think that's something they did really well. I heard him I heard Dan on 20 20 sales he was incredible. One of the best episodes I listened to so that doesn't yeah. I'm sorry. And so I just think remarkable leadership and remarkable execution and holding a level of rigor at every step of the like every aspect of the process. So, I have admired that sales team. I've admired a lot of sales teams. I mean I think Pod Stripe obviously great teams. I think the early salesforce folks. I think Databricks has built a very strong sales organization.

52:51 And it's interesting what the last year has really given me a lot of respect for is how much when you scale this rapidly I've been describing it as a single quarter if we were at a startup is like going from seed stage to series D. Like it's such a compressed maturity cycle. Yeah. And it has made me develop a lot of respect for all of the decisions you've needed to like what scale looks like and how to actually gracefully execute and scale and how how hard it is.

53:19 And which makes me look at the the the hyper scalers and the the hyper scalers and what they must have gone through in the early days and look at a Data Dog or a Databricks in the growth they went through and how they've matured a sales team through that. Yeah. You named some I did the exact same thing all of those that were in I kept bringing you know shamelessly plugging our own blog, but we wrote this article it It all those companies. So, I completely agree with you.

53:42 One thing is like you said this on and I agree with this. I some of the best sales leaders I've ever worked for were women and I wish we I had more of. It's always just good I grew up with brothers, Cannon Lee, and like it's just such a good I think women are naturally more emotionally intelligent and in sales that's like such a strong thing and they it's just such a good comp like um duo when you can have that in a room and read the room a little bit differently. Curious I know you want more women in sales is something that you had said that. I'm curious of like what are some of the most sales people that you admire um female sales leaders that you admire. Oh my I worked for two of I think the best women in the business, Leslie Young and Roolee Saxena.

54:20 Um I work for Kate right now, Kate Jensen. I think she's amazing. I think I worked with Lauren Schwartz. I think she's amazing. I worked with some incredible sales engineering leaders like Jenny Shaw and Rachel Low. Honestly, Maggie, I Mhm. There's so many. I don't know. I think it's a really nice like special moment where they're really coming to the forefront. And so the other thing that I was telling someone someone the other day was asking me why I think women in some scenario and I was like we just had to work harder. And I was like you got to want it more and we're in this environment where the difference between working hard and wanting it a little bit more makes a big difference. It This is a hard hard job and a hard environment.

55:01 The context switching is insane. That the the distractions you're you're in a million different places. I It's like being shot out of a cannon every morning. And the level of the follow through, the execution, the ownership it's just a hard job and you've got to want it and you have to fight for it and I think that when you've had to fight a little bit harder, it shows up now. Yeah, love that. Um the last two questions, one Mount Rushmore of New York City restaurants. So if we put Gramercy Tavern, sounds like Via Carota. Oh yeah, Via Carota What What are like the other two if you can only go to four for the rest of your life in Manhattan, or could be Brooklyn, wherever you want to, however you want to take this, but I I can't just choose two of like God, I love Teddy's around the corner from me. Does it go every week? I'm like, we have to put Teddy's on there.

55:46 And I'm actually very, very um having a moment with um God, I can't remember what it's called. It's the blue the blue stone family the you know, the blue hill blue stone. Uh but they have a new restaurant the the one that's upstate. They have a new restaurant called family. I think it's called family style. >> Oh, Blue Hill Farms. It's like there's some Blue Stone Farms or Blue Hill Farms. Yeah, yeah, okay. They do have a new restaurant.

56:10 >> a new restaurant that I've been to a few times already and it's amazing. Great. Okay. So that comes immediately entering the mouth. So much more. >> Oh, no, no, this is great. I've heard so many great things about you from many of people and it was fun it it you know, it was great to have you on and finally meet you in person and uh I'll be seeing you soon. I have a lot of friends now at Anthropic. I'm always like grabbing coffees with people. I'll have to come hang by the New York City office a little bit and uh It is drying.

56:32 Yeah. Yeah. Thanks again. This is great. Really appreciate you giving us a listen. Give us a subscribe, rating, review, follow on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Hope you enjoy it.