Life After Wealth: The Conversation You Need | R. Madhavan & Varun Dua

0:00 that you know I've come here with good and not so good news you know you realize and then at 60 if you're an employee there's a hard stop hard stop from life as we know it from your relevancy in the society you're living with you have no no standing no relevancy no authoritative control over the environment my worst fears are having being being dependent on someone is worse than help me. Having a stable job is risky. Just because somebody gives you a paycheck on a certain date doesn't mean doesn't mean that there is no no risk. And as an actor, you're risking your your face, your name, your dignity, everything trying to become an actor. Then hopefully you'll make it through. If not, you get embarrassed and you get thrown out. India at least if I were to parents fought for survival. we have probably been in a generation where we are not looking for survival but we're looking for quality quality of life you know and the rules are constantly changing and I mean in a dramatic dramatic way hey Mari it's been what I think we met about months ago yeah correct first time in Chennai right we met in Delhi so I could drag you down to Chennai I'm going to be here for the next two and a months for a series called Legacy which I'm very excited about and I'm playing a very age appropriate role. So this is to look for it. It's a lot more grayed out than I saw last. Well, this is the actual grace. Yeah. I've always loved exploring these exploring these topics with you. but you had this independent streak, right? You met a bunch of people for a change whether it was Radhika you know who who runs a large mutual fund business some biohackers some some chartered accountants divorce laws bunch of these things how were those conversations for you individually those conversations were very exciting highly informative they became very popular people talked to me about for a change you know as a so I I it for a change didn't register to me as a as something that I'm involved with you know I was always involved with these interviews so but I go to the airport and people say for a change is so good and so I realized that it's actually touched a lot of people but I think it was it was sporadic in terms of it was intense it was correct it was very informative but we we wanted to head towards something we need to know where we are taking those those conversations and what is the purpose of those enlightenments you know and I thought that what we're doing right now we're able to curate those conversations to to a relevant and a very tangible outcome which is in today's world if you're going to live for 100 years you know what are the things you need to do and how you need to plan that which is why I thought this is a much more purpose- driven much more directional approach than what for a change was yeah I I kept watching the podcast and and and the kind of business that I run which is really about people planning for their risk for their lives in in some shape or form What ke kept striking in those conversations to me was that these are aspects you know we were taking one slice how how do you plan for certain demise and financial issues around it or how do you plan for your health expenses you know a bunch of these things what does it mean when we put it all together it really means how do you how do you live a better more fulfilling longer hopefully longer life and to get all these aspects right. There are bunch of things that you know get involved. I see close you know in close quarters I see people coming to us for insurance when it's too late. in close quarters I see people not being well planned. in close quarters I've seen the government pushing for mental health disorders to be covered inside insurance because the I'm healthy, I'm wealthy but I'm emotionally not not stable. M so a lot of lot of stuff goes into actually leading a fulfilling life. Correct. Well and I one of my activities that I enjoy is going and giving these talks at corporate events and they invite us with a lot of love. Sometimes they're also a little cheeky about how they have invited actors and I have seen a couple of them saying you know I hope Mr.

4:31 Madavan you're ready for the speech and everything. I I thought they only call for pictures. Yeah. No, no, no. They pay us for it as well. But so I can see that this gentleman was being rather condescending because, you know, I hope you're prepared. Everybody wants to hear and all. And I thought, so let's give him something that he'll want to think about. And while giving him a food for thought, I also got the fear of God put in me because I remember going and you know, seeing this whole executive sitting there and waiting eagerly to see what I had to talk about the film industry. But I said, you know, I've come here with good and not so good news. And they were all like, you know, and I cuz see this gentleman sitting right in front of me looking at me with a smile. I said, the good news is that in today's world with the advancement in medical science, you know, God forbid you don't have an accident or you don't have a debotched lifestyle, you know, they'll keep you alive till you're 90 at least. If you stay healthy and you take your walks and you had your right food, staying alive till 90 is not such a big deal anymore or at least thereabouts 90 to, you know, 100 years. They keep they keep blessing us with 100 years and stuff like that. But now it looks more of a reality. The not so good news is that the first 30 years of your life is properly charted. You know, you know your parents know when to send you to school, which school to send you, how much you have to study, where what subject you have to study, when to give the exams, and then which college you need to go to and then what kind of a you know job you need to apply to. And by the time you're 30, you're by and large taken one large leap of your life to stabilize yourself. Then comes the next 30 years where you build on what you've what you've achieved so far or what you started off you know on the family front on the professional front on the work front on the finance front and then at 60 if you're an employee there's a hard stop hard stop from life as you know it from your relevancy in the society you're living because most of if you're working in a corporate setup and you're living in that area you have a lot of importance you have become the assistant general manager or general manager and suddenly you're not there anymore you have no no standing no relevance no authority ative control over the environment like you have. One Monday you're a sab, next day you're just a citizen. you know and then the next 30 years of your life is not charted. There's no plan. There's no plan because we are not taught to plan for the next 30 years. It is supposed to be retirement and in most cases retirement from life. Yeah. But that is not the case. Right. Or do you want to be a part of your grandchildren's life?

6:55 What have you done to invest in your retirement community in terms of not money but making friends? I mean, how many people that are sitting around you would you like to have as neighbors who you can trust will take care of you if there's an emergency because when you're 35 and 40 when you plan what you your future should be is very different from what you look at it when you're 60 and suddenly you realize that the house that you built you thought your son will move into doesn't have any relevance. He is in some other part of the world. So the the commitment to the next 30 years is so vague or the idea of the next 30 years is so vague that I think Von that that can be the difference between heaven and hell in your life. Before we talk about the next 30 years where it could be challenging for all the reasons that you mentioned I also don't think just purely you know from the kind of lifestyles that we read we all of us lead 45 onwards where your career starts to slow down and your health starts to worsen the first step is what are we doing about our health 90 100 or what is that health span that you're getting more than will they stretch you till 90 I think today like you rightly said medical science will stretch you till 90 you know that is is is not not very correctly lipan healthan if you spend all the time not creating an ecosystem that you're appreciated in for example the relevancy factor are you considered relevant in the society or are they going to say and you have no contribution to make either to the society or family I'll take this somewhere else right I can say like it it happened with me right we always have this view that you're constantly going to be young you know there is more time you can do this later you know and I think life runs Suddenly you realize your parents kids are you know friends are calling your uncle and then you go and you don't pay enough attention to your to your to your lifestyle to your health habits to your financial planning and suddenly it starts getting too late correct I don't think we are working towards saying I need to sustain this body at 70 if I'm going to have this so-called 90 to 100 year life so let's talk about the what are your worst fears as you grow older My worst fears are having being being dependent you know on on on on someone that would have been you know first thing I would have said and I can assure you that'll be the first thing that any person who's watching this podcast will say physically for my day-to-day functionality I should not be dependent on anybody monetarily I should not be anybody is worse than hell for me. Yes.

9:58 Loss of dignity and is held for me in my opinion. I should be able to contribute or I should not be part of it. I can share openly. My my father was suddenly out of sorts when he retired you know like just just no plan you know. Correct. not having occupation like a day. Correct. not knowing what to do with the 16 17 waking hours. Yeah. is is a tough shift. Oh, it's a big challenge. it's a it's a tough shift, right? Because you were the man of the house. You were you had respect in in society. You had 20 people calling you five times a day like you you're sort of position and suddenly it suddenly it comes to an end and not finding that not finding an anchor, not finding a you know ground with you. Yeah. Yeah. it's it's super tough and you said something very beautiful and I resonated with it beautifully before we started the conversation where you said that the only way to get rid of all your small issues is to find a higher purpose to serve. Yeah. Like you know you have to find an interest or a hobby where you're ending up serving other people. This is not a philosophical statement. We're talking about a survival instinct.

11:15 Right. So your problem looks smaller when you start serving others. Yes. But the point is we have to reach a space where you want to serve others. Whereas your own survival is not at stake. Yes. It's very difficult to reach that stage of you know and making your life comfortable because you're serving others when your own bread and butter is at stake or health is at stake. Right. Yeah. So the dichotomy here is 60 is a new 45 in terms of health. I'm 55. Okay.

11:41 At 60 I'm going to be doing stuff that my parents would never have imagined doing at 60. I know I can do it and I still you know keep it up be it with movies be dancing whatever that we do and but financially 45 is a new 30 because you're not stable by then earlier on you had a government job you know that is fine but now when 40 is a new 60 in terms of financial Yeah. And 60 is a new 45 in terms of health. The dichotomy is going to be something that people have to find new rules to start living within. I I say this with personal experience of having run a company and a you know and a bunch of these things that happen to people in their careers. I think and if you don't have that relevance that relevance going away quickly and you find yourself stranded. So what is actual security?

12:44 Yeah. Whether whether it's the financial aspects of security or whether the security in your career. I don't think people have I think a lot of people I wouldn't say everybody I'm sure there are smart people out there but a lot of people really haven't calibrated what is that security that they need whether it's financial it's just practical planning of I think praically I don't think I don't think I'm that well planned. I could I can't give you a number.

13:11 absolute possible I can't give you a number but do we at least have some calibrated sense and second is how do I look at if my career suddenly ends or at 4550 people are starting to lose relevance maybe maybe in the in the field that you are there is always something that keeps keeps happening but in the corporate corporate career you could suddenly it's a hard stop it's suddenly it's like a you know dead wall and people are optimizing for that safety of no business bunch of these things assuming it's safe correct I'm saying it's not safe because you could be fired overnight we're seeing that all over the world I don't think people are well planned in well planned in all these aspects so first taking care of your health so that you can survive any of these other pieces which could be planning or just better living second also insurance also insurance so that if you're out there senate you're not financially screwed for lack of a better word. Absolutely.

14:14 planning for the money that you will need and the purpose and the fearlessness because that fearlessness is actually security because if you don't develop a second skill set go out there and try something if suddenly you get fired you're done. And you know to anticipate what could be the right amount of money within which to live in has become so difficult right now. you know you said to you're used to a certain lifestyle and I've seen people who suddenly say no I can't afford a car I don't need a car let me go but the stigma of having to let go of your car at a stage looks like financial issue is how people are looking into it you know and so people especially people who are working in a place where their employment is based and when they want to retire and go to another part of their hope hopefully closer to their relatives and friends and family that settlement also takes a huge huge toll on on on these guys right so the relevancy in that society because they have to start from scratch find out who's the local doctor which is the local hospital do they have your medical history you know where can I go to my buy groceries which is the bank that I should be handling so all that new change which is coming at 45 because at 45 your children are also not settled yeah they're somewhere in that midspace yeah at 60 your children were settled you you know they able to take care at 45 at best your kids are at 20 or to you know if you had in today's day and age may maybe they're even 15 or 14 15 or 14 because of the late so you're responsible for their education their health their you know settling as well or their marriage so how is it possible to figure out what is really enough by the time you're 45 I think it's like practically impossible to get a get a get a number of of saying what would I need if I have to live to 80 90 and also fund my kids education or my retirement and maybe maybe have a emergency pool in case like I lose my career or my job.

16:12 but I think the most important thing to talk about is have I started calibrating at least do I have a do I have a little bit of a little bit of a plan. I I think this has been very enriching for me because when you ask me when I ask you a question I also have a introspective moment where I'm thinking what is a good enough wealth for me and I I think for me emotionally wealth would be if I have to get back to a one-bedroom apartment where I started my career with getting anywhere below that would be a a huge loss of wealth in my opinion if I'm not if I'm able to if I'm capable of providing my next generation with a better lifestyle than I was blessed with with my parents and you know for them to be able to sustain it without much effort. I think that for me would be enough wealth for for having done my job. I personally believe a lot in creating some passive income you know outside of outside of what what my day job day job provides me which is wealth creation. I think all of us should strive for not income but for wealth. and wealth doesn't really mean being rich or obscenely rich.

17:25 Wealth means that it's passive. It exists. Income is I have to do some activity to generate it. Wealth is that it exists and it pays me somehow. Correct. now whether it's my brand equity of Madavan as an actor who just name sells it's wealth you know I don't have to do activity because I built my own brand I I built my own company which is multiplying in value I whether I go to work at 9:00 a.m. or 10:00 a.m.

17:52 Hopefully, it continues to build build value. But when you're constantly getting paid for your time and as you're aging and as people are getting kicked out faster and people want a younger workforce, differentiating between income and wealth, I don't feel people people do a very good job. Wealth is something that will multiply. Income is something that I am always on the treadmill for. Correct. now, how do you build wealth? whether you have unique talents or you're an astute investor or you save enough to buy assets even doing a regular job. I'm going to ask you that one question that you said about risk. See, you're a first generation entrepreneur, right? Yeah. As I'm a first generation actor and the risks in this business are as 99 to1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you have the 99 to1 is actually good. Yeah.

18:43 Good. Good odds. Yeah. Very good odds. for your and my career wise it's one in a thousand if I may say so how do you how do you first handle the risk how do you mitigate the risk and more importantly what is your approach towards handling risk I have a very different point of view on this I think u you know all of us also sometimes underestimate and sometimes overestimate overestimate risk also especially with careers and money let me say careers first let me not mix the I think we have a overestimation of of what risk is. So I don't consider myself as somebody who's gone there and done something big and difficult and and so on and so forth. I do believe that right time right place would have probably maybe in this field and some other field have you know could have been able to figure it out. I I'll tell you I'll explain why how I look at this this piece. if you have had the opportunity to have a reasonable formal education you know I'm not talking about you know people who have not had the opportunity to do that and you do know that maybe your peers are your peers your batchmates as you start climbing through life after college and so on and so forth you're constantly your issue is that you're constantly Your risk is falling behind peers. Your risk become actual risk. Understood. Uhhuh. Your falling behind peers is where your ego takes a ego takes a hit. but actually when you financially calculate or you calculate what is the risk of what I'm actually doing that's the worst that can happen which is no problem. There's no no lack of dignity in going for a going for a job. The worst that can happen is I have to start two levels below where my peers could be. Correct? But I'm not on the road. It's not like I don't have food to eat. Correct. Maybe I don't have a fourbedroom house or a two-bedroom house. Maybe I have to live in a studio for a year till I, you know, till I'm able to make stuff back again. But having that understanding that what is this risk? Is this risk that I'm on the roads? I don't have money to eat or is this risk about falling behind peers for 2 3 4 years very nice you know I I think a lot of us suffer from this overestimation of risk correct and having a stable job is risky you see Microsoft this that layoffs AI I I think there is it's just because somebody gives you a paycheck on a certain date doesn't mean doesn't mean that there is no no risk so I think going for something that you like doing without a little bit of financial cover is what the risk is you know but that risk is overestimated in my head if you break it down and you really say that okay what's the worst that can happen I don't know how it is in your field no absolutely I mean from from your point of view what you're saying is it doesn't matter whether you're 60 or 62 when your net worth is so counted you know what I mean yeah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter and if you hit it right and if you're at it and I strongly believe So this is not my first company correct. IO is not my first company.

22:10 It's frankly my third attempt at trying to trying to do something. It's just my third attempt became large enough you know where impactful enough. I'm it can still be larger and it's still impacting maybe a few people but it can impact at large maybe it'll take more time but it's the third attempt but in this third attempt over these 10 15 years it's there were many times where I was behind my peers accepting that is actually what we are calling risk I think I think it's an emotional mean judgment it's a notational risk it's not really a it's not really true risk. So I think learning new things, putting yourself in a new career trajectory to learn new skills or trying something new or going completely out there or saying hey I'm from FMCJ I want to try financial services or I want to go to tech.

23:06 promotion is where our risk is. Our risk is not that actually the fact that it could all go right if I put myself out there. Yeah. is is is where I think the overestimation happens and the underestimation if I can say is that underestimation usually on the personal side where we don't plan for anything going wrong in our lives. we don't plan for how much money we'll need. We don't plan underestimation is my body will keep working correct you know the the way it was working. So in fact I believe completely differently.

23:48 You may be up to start a little smaller but we underestimate risk on the on the on the personal side. One of the risks that we perceived risk is the falling behind your peers which in the film industry once you've made a name for yourself is actually a clear and present challenge right so you keep thinking oh his net worth has gone up and his brand equity has gone up and that's a a risk but most people don't realize that we have already crossed the biggest risk where venturing into a line like this has become your career and you've been able to sustain over a period of a decade paid. Yeah, this job where there is one in a million will probably make it to the position that you're in or even less.

24:34 So the risk here is that as an depending on which department you're in as an actor, you're risking your your face, your name, your dignity, everything trying to become an actor and hopefully you'll make it through. If not, you get embarrassed and you get thrown out. As a producer you can put 40 crores or 100 crores or 200 crores at the end of which we're left with only a disk in terms of an asset. Yeah. Can you imagine that? I mean there is no other liquidatable asset except a disc piece of content just a content that will either work or not work. Yeah. So that is wholesome like a allout risk. It's almost like a gamble. So in the film industry when there's a 7 to 8% success rate I don't think the legitimate word would be in industry because it's full of risks you know and you lottery business. Yeah, absolutely. On the lottery bit, you know, like when I talk to my peers and or or about taking risks and there's somebody who put it, I forget who who said that a lot of us, if you're not born in the hungriest parts of subsaharan Africa and you've had the chance at formal education, the chance of even a middle class lifestyle. It is truly in the world what is called an ovarian lottery. Correct. You've already won the lottery. So in India at least if I were to our parents fought for survival both both physical and financial survival we have probably been in a generation where we are not looking for survival but we're looking for quality quality of life and quality of life is all these topics and I'm quite excited next few months hopefully we'll get in more guests who are much more smarter than you and me on some of these topics. Absolutely. and try and see what a 100 year life looks like you know and the rules are constantly changing and I mean in a dramatic dramatic way I don't think it might be too preposterous to say that I you and I will not be talking about a day when we're discussing how to settle down in Mars and populate it because it's it looks like a yeah reality is possible it's real possible right so it's all very exciting and I hope to have far more interesting conversations with you again on this Looks good. Yeah. Yeah.