Godmother of AI: In 10 Years There Will Be Only 2 Kinds of Workers | Fei-Fei Li

0:00 This is why I think a lot of people are scared. I thought universities like a path to career. >> I think the word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency. Agency is the key in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced. Get familiar with that technology. >> Fei-Fei Li built the data that made modern AI possible. Now she's raised $1 million to build what comes next and she's teaching all of this in her new MasterClass, AI's future and yours.

0:28 David Rogier turned MasterClass into a $2.75 billion company teaching people from the world's best. Today they're both watching the same shift and they have a lot to say about it. >> It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done that they never have before. >> We aren't going to have to work anymore. >> Universal basic income. >> Yeah, we're just going to get paid to to chill. >> Time of change could be a time of loss.

0:56 >> What does it look like? What should people be preparing for? >> Loss of old habits, loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity. It's an opportunity for >> You are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are the biggest shifts happening? >> my world is very much AI, so I think the I get to experience really the the the the cutting edge of where the technology is pushing. it's just I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. The technologists, the entrepreneurs and in including product people business people are all recognizing this just really sea change of how AI can now be used to to rethink business, to rethink applications and you know, it just feels I've been Silicon Valley for 17 years. the energy is just I've never seen this before. Even 10 years ago, I did not feel that level of excitement.

2:03 >> That's that's amazing. And I feel like everyone's working more. David, would you agree with that? What's happening in your company? >> It's a gap that's widening increasingly. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done, and they feel a sense of agency that they never had before. If they're still nervous to or haven't been trained to, you are seeing that that gap increase. One of the the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is god-like and going to have it save the world, and the other half of people are like this is the this is the devil and going to destroy everything.

2:48 >> Very polarized society, right now. >> And I think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach or maybe is is isn't the best design approach. And then if you actually you shared this with me, but it but but if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it and how do I use it to actually help people, we might be able to get the best of both worlds. You asked earlier about tools.

3:15 >> Yeah. >> And I think I was thinking about it. If you asked me like a couple months ago, I would have listed, you know, Claude and Chat GPT and all of the tools. I have now found the most of the apps I use, I built. >> Mhm. >> And I built them with Claude code or with Codex. >> Fine. Very cool. >> and and I think this First of all, that's like amazing to me because now is like if my was if like my CEO stack is all apps that I built >> Is it called Davidfy, right? I read something like you built your own custom >> D A Davidfy.

3:47 >> Davidfy, yeah. >> And I gave to my team, which is like if if >> you're trying to write something in my own voice, like here are a bunch of emails that I wrote and things I said to you to do it. But even my to my productivity apps, my to-do list app I built, and and it is I have it that if it's on the list for over two over a day and a half, it can't stay on the list. So, it forces me to either decide that I'm going to do it now, I'm going to dump it cuz it's actually not an important thing, or I'm going to pass it off to a person on my team. And this just allows you to create all these apps for the way that you think it work. To And so, back to our agency point, like you're able to create the workflows and tools, anything that you now want. So, now it's about what's the motivation to do it, what's the skills to go do it, but the cost of do of making an app dropped from, you know, months to like a weekend.

4:46 >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a very good point. Oh, if an employee comes to you and says like, "I really want to start using AI." What would you tell them like, where do they start? What What What is the task? Cuz I've heard some of the some entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe code their dashboard, for example. Do you have like a go-to thing? >> I don't like vibe coding a dashboard because when somebody vibe vibe codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard. It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So, like it's great for like an hour, but then it like stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time.

5:21 when they want to learn AI, I have found if they're asking that what if they're asking that question, >> >> they are hesitant to try it on their own. >> Mhm. >> There's something that's holding them back. And so, what I do in those cases is like And like sometimes I I I worry this is like a waste of my time, but I I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three, and I will show them a basic task. like deep like on research.

5:49 >> Mhm. And like I'll walk them through it like step by step. And in some ways I feel like that's a waste of my time cuz I'm like, you could watch a YouTube video on this that's way more effective than I am. But I found is there's something about me doing it with them that then there's something that like unlocks that they then go soar on their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking or they feel forced to do it cuz I'm the CEO and I'm making them do it or that like but then the act of walking them through it, then they are unlocked to go do it and they could do lots more things.

6:20 >> Yeah, I thank you David for for really bringing the the complexity of reality. That is something that I observe and frankly am concerned because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have to look at the upside, we have to look at the downside, but the public discourse right now is not like that. It's either total utopia, it's going to you know, save the world and we don't have to work anymore. Universally speaking >> Yeah, we're going to get paid to to chill.

6:51 >> Or you know, this this thing about FAI, it it's so bad. It's going to just displace all jobs. It's going to take away all human agency. And these two extreme is very dangerous. I generally believe it's a technology, that means it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool. But it it's a tool that humans can wield to help make things better.

7:22 But we also have to be very very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to use tools from fire to to knives to you know, the internet. Now we have to learn that as a species, as a society. And the most important discourse is missing, and that's the discourse of the nuanced middle. >> Mhm. >> is what this tool is, how can we use it for good, how should we avoid the pitfalls, and how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilization tool?

8:02 >> The AI agents you're building right now, they don't understand each other. Your sales agent closes a deal and learns something about the customer. Your support agent picks up the same customer an hour later and starts with zero context. That knowledge just vanishes every single time. Outshift by Cisco published a white paper this year called scaling out super intelligence. Their argument, the biggest bottleneck in AI right now isn't bigger models or smarter agents, it's making them work together better. They're calling the solution the internet of cognition. Shared intent, shared context, shared reasoning across all your agents at once. There is a live demo at outshift.com. Five use cases, you can watch the agents reason together in real time. If you're building anything with agents, read the paper and try the demo because they are working on this future right now. Links are in the description.

8:58 >> And then it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the it's the first tool that is so industrial revolution automated our physical labor, right? Here we're kind of automating our intelligence, and this is why I think a lot of people are scared cuz they're like, oh, I thought university No guarantees, but it's like a path to career. Now, if the cost of intelligence goes to zero, I don't know, like what's going to happen. What do you think?

9:23 >> One things I learned from from from you was that right now when we talk about AI, it's is language-based. That, to use your phrase, is like lossy. It it is you aren't going to learn how to drive a car with words. You aren't going to learn how to shoot a basketball with words. And I so I think we're still in a like V1 of AI, and I think this fear is a little overhyped because AI it's doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our val it's our values.

10:00 And so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you want to share your I thought it was really neat the thing you did with the doctors and they're washing their hands. >> >> yeah, so I I agree with David. First of all, industrial revolution did not automate labor. It It made labor more efficient. It scaled up labor. It did it has shift of the labor market, but it did not automate labor. And also, we cannot imply labor is not intelligent.

10:33 That is really, really a wrong premise. You know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor. Human activity is deeply intertwined with human intelligence, which is still very much a an an unsolved mystery in in nature. We don't know the depth and nuance of human intelligence. So, claiming I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that intelligence the cost of intelligence goes to zero is just an irresponsible claim because human intelligence is so deep, as David said, in addition to the more familiar language intelligence, we also have perceptual intelligence, spatial intelligence, physical intelligence, emotional intelligence. we don't have a grasp on creativity, where that comes from. Everybody's creativity comes from different parts of their not only their brain, but their holistic life. So, I think we need to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence, the LLMs, the derivatives of LLMs are incredibly powerful. You know, they're helping business intelligence. They're helping software engineering. They're the helping deductive logical reasoning and even deeper tasks. The we're we're not seeing a gigantic use of language and software intelligence. All this is in important, but it is nuanced. It is it's complex. It's a lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence, but I would not use words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.

12:38 >> The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI. Cuz what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs. They're like, "We don't need you anymore." That type of stuff. And this is what's causing this negativity. >> But the answer isn't in those cases to say I'm going to avoid using AI or that I'm not going to use it. I think the answer is you grab the tool and then you figure out how I'm going to design it better or how I'm going to improve I'm going to I'm going to improve the tool or some of your work in hospitals. If you take If you take a job, a job is actually like a whole set of tasks. And I think one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you do in your job that you probably don't like.

13:18 Your example I remember was a nurse has to chart all their notes. >> Doctors too. >> And and doctors. I have never met a nurse that's like, "You know the job, the part of my job I love the most is charting. And like, that is not why they got into the professional field. So, I think the avoidance is the wrong way, but I also think I agree with you. I think it will, if we look at any technological shift, it's always ended up in net more jobs.

13:47 The issue is just who gets those Who is it that actually gets those jobs? But the people who don't get those jobs are the people who do not adapt to it. >> Yeah. >> Right? And if you don't adapt, the outcomes are very bad. So, if you look at the past with the advent of the computer, of the spreadsheet, what happens if you don't adapt is you lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth, and your mortality rate in the first year doubles.

14:19 Like, it actually hurts your health. >> That's crazy stats. >> It's And so, the answer isn't to go into a hole, it's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools. >> Yeah, I I totally agree with David. I I think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. you used the word agency, we talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think that that's it that's the core meaning of any technology, including a so-called god-like technology like AI, is it's it should be human-centered. And what is a meaning Human-centered is just a phrase in the To me, the simplest but the most profound meaning of human-centeredness is really empowerment to humanity, to to including individuals, communities, and society. And that is the meaning of this technology, which brings up this point that David said is that it's a time of change. Time of change could be a time of loss.

15:26 Loss of old habits. >> Mhm. >> Loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades. loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity. It's a opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of confusion and loss to time of of opportunity as a individual?

15:59 It is really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this opportunity. And that goes to the core of every human journey, whether you are a K-12 student or you're a ready a professional, we have to embrace this together. >> Yeah, and but also to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. can you tell me like if we take AI today, what type of tasks it can do already? What is still very human?

16:36 And what's going to happen in a year? So how fast is it moving? >> I mean, I think in education, it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest obstacle I'll I'll share. So we know from the last 60 years that the best way for somebody to learn is one-on-one instruction. >> Mhm. >> So the question has to be asked, why do we sit in in classrooms of 20 people, of 300 people? It's simply cost. It is too expensive to provide a doctorly to every person in the world. Even though that would be amazing. I would I'll sign up for >> >> and so with AI though, from the work that's been done in the last couple years, we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that.

17:30 It is so much better than learning in a classroom than reading just a book on it. So then the question and now you're able to provide that same education, the one where you sat in a in an elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year. You're now or or a school for $80,000 a year once you're you know, undergrad, you're able to provide that same education for about $100. >> Mhm. >> So the question has to be asked, when are we going to see that that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the tech. The biggest obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of the afraid of that change. But I think what's going to happen, we know that if you use AI to learn, you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time.

18:22 >> Mhm. >> So if school says, I'm going to ban AI, I'm going to ban my kids from using AI, and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way, those kids who use AI are going to be far ahead of the kids that don't. Now that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all those social bonds, but I think you're going to start to see a divergence in kids where one group that's open to AI is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else, and I think that's bad.

18:55 And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's going to happen is those schools that do not adapt, in 10 years, they're going to be they aren't going to exist cuz they're going to be so far behind. >> And also their world will be changing so fast because of AI, like what David said, a part of it they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them, especially the teachers and educator educational administrator in this discourse of AI and and show them what is a viable path that maintains the goal of education. The goal of education is not a tool. The goal of education is not close book or open book exams. The goal of education is not standardized test scores. The goal of education is is building humans and so that every individual is a meaningful contributor of their community and society and lead to a meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any any of these fundamentals away, but AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively.

20:23 And and this polarized extremely simplified binary conversation about AI's for cheating or not, close book, take away AI it is just not where we should be. We should be looking at how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we rethink about examinations, how we rethink about standardized test, how we rethink about college admissions, how we rethink about resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering cost and barriers. So how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, you know, globally, global south. These are really important, more important topics of AI and education.

21:21 >> Absolutely. >> That we're we're missing that conversation. >> You know what I think will help this conversation because when I'm thinking about my kids' education, I want to imagine a workplace where they're going to be. So, when I was growing up, the workplace is big company, you're doing this, and so in order to get there, you need to study this, this, and that. >> >> Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in 10 years? What does it look like? What should be people be preparing for?

21:46 >> Agency. I think AI will give people more agency. So, a lot of the a lot of the future of work, I think will rely on people who knows who know how to use this tools in very effective way. So, let me give you a concrete example. We one of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past 20 years is product manager. You know, there's a lot of conversations of the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be 10 years ago fairly standard product manager's job is more the thread between users, markets, and engineers. They're more like a conductors. They don't have to code.

22:38 They fairly often they were not software engineers. So, if they want a prototype, they go to a designer, they go to a software engineer. They get a prototype, and then they they send a prototype to users, and and and they listen to the users, and and synthesize the feedback. And that life cycle of product management might take typically months, you know, in in a company. Today, if you look at the job of product manager, actually a lot of companies are experimenting with different things, but there are some fundamental changes. A lot of product managers just now codes themselves.

23:21 They don't have to wait to prototype from a team of people. They can use AI to help to design something very simple and and and write code. So, that part shortens the life cycle. Doesn't mean we we we should get rid of designers or software engineer, but it just saves time and so that software engineer and designers can do much more sophisticated work. Also, user side, things are shifting. AI can actually simulate user behaviors and there are much much if more efficient ways to reach to the users, to to close the loop with users. So, I'm looking at these young product managers and when I look to hire them, I look for those who are riding the the wave of changes. I don't look for those product managers who are still talking about the textbook workflow of even 5 years ago. So, what I think the future of companies, there's a lot to imagine and depending on the company from healthcare to to education to whatever industry, but I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can be much more empowered by powerful tools like AI, so that personal agency, creativity, and also the boundaries of what people a person can do and cannot do is just a lot more blurred and lowered lowered.

25:08 So to me that's going to just fundamentally shift the structure of corporate America and and every student today should try to imagine who they want to be in that new structure. >> Most people use Claude like a search engine. They type in a question, they get an answer. Most times they're not really satisfied with it and they close the tab. I did the same thing for months and I was looking at people who were saying AI is changing their life and I'm like then I spend one afternoon setting it up properly, uploaded a few files about how I think and how I work and it completely changed. I wrote the whole process up step-by-step. You get it when you subscribe to my newsletter futureproof. It's free. The link is in the description.

25:54 >> It feels like you were just describing entrepreneurs within workspace or you're like either you're an entrepreneur or you're an entrepreneur within organization which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple things. >> I mean my hypothesis on this, you will get a barbell effect and this is what we are seeing at Masterclass where you have one group that are becoming the specialists. And it used to be like I remember in school like I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that and that's how I build a long-term career. I think that's eroding except if you're in the top one if you're like the actual best.

26:32 What I mean by this is if I'm a copywriter if I'm an okay one anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job of that. But if you're the best in the world at it or if you're in the top 1% I can't beat you at it. And so we're seeing A the rise of people that are specialists that are very good at their thing. And I think that extends to tons of crafts. And then the other role we're seeing is this high agency generalist who's able to do lots of different things well and has good has really good skills on the judgement side, on the agency side. And those people when you see them interact it's really neat because they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft and whoa, I couldn't do that, right? And I so my guess is that it's a bifurcation of those specialists and the people that can do lots of things well.

27:32 >> That's interesting. And I I agree with you. I think both whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency. >> Yes, that's that. I think it's very well put. >> And you should both be able to use tools in ways that's uniquely creative and deep, right? I'm already seeing this, right? for example, designers, you know, they they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of AI tools in ways I cannot personally imagine. So I know that's where their craftsmanship comes. And also the word entrepreneurial in Silicon Valley that's almost like I'm going to do a Delaware incorporated start up and that's the label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I think the word word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency.

28:23 >> Yeah. >> You know, it's it doesn't matter. You can be a doctor, special specialty doctor. You can be a K-12 teacher. but agency is the key and in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced have have be brave. Have your human agency and command that technology. use that technology, get familiar with that technology. Don't be afraid, don't shy away from it because that's where the the the wheels of history is turning towards the future.

28:59 And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder, everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they want to do. >> You mentioned so many tools like use tools use just. Can you give me example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job? >> Obviously, all kinds of from ChatGPT to Gemini to Claude, I use it in many different ways. They have so many features from helping me to study some deep topics or to have a conversation.

29:32 here's a here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household. So every weekend I have to do loads and loads of laundry. And it used to be my audio book time, but sometimes sometimes I get bored just listening to audio book and and just about a few months ago I realized I can have a conversation of a deep topic with AI as I was just folding laundry. And that has been so much fun. Somehow it's more even more motivating for me to go fold laundry cuz I can have me time with with AI to learn anything I want. And I of of course software engineering has been completely transformed. And also, you know, on the art and design side, I mean, we're labs, we are creating models to help our creators and to imagine 3D worlds and all that. So we also see change in the creative world.

30:36 once again, that's also a very contentious area because some companies have positioned AI's creative tools as if it's a replacement and I just deeply deeply protest that positioning. I I think that human creativity, even just on the visual side, human creativity is so vast, but even just on the visual design side is profoundly intertwined with our emotional intelligence, with the story we bring, with the values we bring each creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them solicit >> yeah.

31:21 >> their you know, express their creativity instead of to replace it. >> Totally. >> Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence? >> Yes, so this is the work I'm doing now in world labs. So, what is spatial intelligence? Spatial intelligence is a a term that encompasses multiple abilities today that humans display in in a environment like this one, 3D environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can understand what's going on. I see people, I see equipments, I see this beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason. If I want to go and you know go grab a a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about I can go up the staircase, I can recognize the fridge, I reason about my movement. So, that's reasoning.

32:23 that's another part of spatial intelligence. A third part of spatial intelligence is generation. Is that in my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing the your living room, but I actually have a view of what our living room looks like. If I'm a more more better artist, I can actually generate a lot of visual 2D or 3D or or 4D visual artifacts pieces, so humans can generate a lot of space. And the fourth last but not the least part of visual intel sorry, spatial intelligence is interactivity.

33:05 Is how I focus on interacting with the space, right? Like how again laundry folding, that's my favorite weekend activity these days. That's deeply spatial. >> Yeah. >> How you fold each piece of garment and how you hang them in the the closet and and all that is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things, understanding, reasoning, generation, and interaction. And we are working on that. We have made tremendous progress.

33:42 I'm I'm saying collective we. You know, today you use say Nano Banana or if you use GPT image, that tool can actually help you to generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can actually explain to you what unknown flower is in your garden. That understanding is is quite advanced. It can help help you to reason. Now we can actually draw figures in in AI tools.

34:16 The generation part right now the more mature products are on the 2D side. What we're labs is doing is on the 3D side. 3D is so fundamental for robotic interaction, for truly controllable creativity such as design, architecture, game development, VFX. So, that's the piece we are working on. >> Is it separate from LLMs? Like I mean, do LLMs have their limit and then world models step in?

34:49 >> yes and no. I think they're complementary. You can't think about humans, right? Just as you were saying to to put a basketball in the hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't like sit there and think and talk in their head. But I do think that is a Even that act itself is a highly complex intelligent moment where language reasoning come in because you probably as an athlete you are you are keenly aware of the scoringness or missingness, what it means to the game or to the moment. And some of that is probably going on in a language way. But seeing the court, seeing the other players, and and aiming the ball, that is deeply spatial. And then orient orienting your body like knowing how to make that move is deeply physical. So, so many things we do in life is actually a mixture of language linguistic intelligence, spatial intelligence, and physical intelligence. So, to me they're very complementary. They work together.

36:14 I do deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. Evolution took 500 million plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took much a much shorter time for language intelligence. So, it's a very profound ancient fundamental intelligent capability of animals and humans. >> And how far are we from understanding the fullness of it, like 100% of >> Well, I >> >> as a scientist, I never know what's 100% because science itself is pushing the boundaries of unknown.

36:57 The the If the goal post is human intelligence, the challenge is we don't even know how far human intelligence is, right? We we we never know that the boundary of human intelligence. But, if you think the daily capability of humans, the average capabilities >> laundry folding >> Right. The the the the the cooking omelet, the the laundry folding, the playing basketball, how far are we? We're not there yet.

37:31 But, is it going to take 100 years? I don't think so. My My goal is we could get there in my lifetime. >> Mhm. >> And I think a lot of people are working on that, so that put a kind of a bound, right? I don't think it will take 100 years. It might not even take 50 years, but it's not going to take 1 year either. >> What What What is your estimate? When does Dr. Fei-Fei Li retire from laundry folding on Sundays?

38:00 How many years? >> Yesterday. Like I said, I don't know. >> Mhm. >> Laundry folding itself is also involves physical embodiment, so that's that that also involves sensor technology and hardware technology, so that So, that goes a little bit more complex. but again, I'm hoping it's our lifestyle. >> Yeah, me too. As a mom, I'm hoping. >> I I mean, I know this is a term that you avoid for a whole host of factors, but my hypothesis would be you can't get anywhere close to what AGI, which I know is the word that you avoid for a host of reasons, is you can't even get close to it until we do the spatial intelligence.

38:51 Because that's about that's to read people, that's to interact in the world. >> Yeah, you know, look, I'm not going to love fight the popularity of this word. It's just as a scholar, we always the field in in the academic world is called artificial intelligence. It's it's it's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means here, right? So, but whatever, that's just a word that we we can it's just a nickname, I guess.

39:22 yeah, I agree with you, David. I think AI or intelligence is complex. I I I don't think the picture of AI will be complete without spatial intelligence. >> So, we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an educational company, what would be your advice for people who want to work on their agency? How do you even teach your kids agency? >> It's a really good question. The research I've looked into it a lot is not quite there yet. So, we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses, and if you break down agency into individual parts, we we then have clues for it.

40:06 So, for example, we know to be able to feel safe, to actually take risks is is an important part of it. We know that being able to fail and learn from those is is is a big part of agency. We know the resilience to get back up is really important part of it. we know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also really big part of it.

40:36 There's also things of like fundamental needs to want to solve a thing or to impress someone, which isn't necessarily the best traits, but those things drive If you need to solve a problem issue or whatever is going to drive you to to solve that is going to help you force you to find agency. I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency. Things people will say. and there's some evidence for this.

41:07 It's just weak. It's >> >> you want to you want to put yourself in places that are going to be hard and new for you. So you want to get and that starts as a kid. Right? You want to be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love and food and sleep and mental health are provided for you there. we know also that you can incentivize it, too.

41:41 So I think, you know, we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing. Comp does push you to do things on it. but agency itself, from my own experience, >> >> so much of life in society we are taught to seek praise. If you think about it as kids, praise from our moms and dads. Yeah. School, praise from our instructors.

42:12 jobs from our bosses. And having agency and that to your point that entrepreneurialism but isn't just for entrepreneurs. It's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised. I remember when I started Masterclass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for me for somebody who sought praise for most of my life.

42:42 And then but then what I had to realize and change was to if you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea. >> Mhm. >> And that you actually to have agency and to be an entrepreneur, you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible. And then now as an entrepreneur, when somebody says something's impossible, I'm like, "Ooh." "Ooh, like I want to dive more into that." Right? And so I think it's like a fundamental shift and it comes from a lot of things that like I wish I knew if I teach you these four things you're now going to have high agency, it's more complicated than that.

43:17 >> Yeah. >> Totally. I think you'd said it beautifully. Yeah. >> you have this aspect of which I I feel like is an aspect of agency, independent thinking. You wrote this Substack where you're teaching people to like switch everything off, make your own decisions. But and generate your own thoughts. What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary. Cuz if it's contrarian to what your friends and you're like come up with this opinion and they disagree with you, how do you train that muscle?

43:52 Cuz I feel like it's so important for agency as well. >> I well, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train them muscle for for me, my kids, my students is is everything David said. It's encouragement is is you know, as simple as don't be lazy. >> >> I know that people my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I actually have a contrarian view.

44:30 I think our new generation, our next generation I'm actually a little envious of them because I think their world is much more heterogeneous. That if you're used to being on Twitter {slash} X, you're used to being on Insta or TikTok, you start to realize the the world is full of voices. >> Yeah. >> Instead of that one teacher or one parent when the world was smaller and narrower. So, our new generation of young people are are natively born into a world full of voices, full of opinions, full of possibilities.

45:16 And that can be daunting. That can be if used misguided, we we we know, I'm not saying, I mean, there's a lot of issues in social media and and all that. But that can be also opportunity because you kind of you can use this reality to to remind the young generation Look, it's it's your voice that matters because you know, there's no authoritarian voice or or tiny tiny number of people holds the megaphone, right? And and that can be used to encourage young generation to to re-examine the century they're living in. And this is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than anybody else's voice if you believe in that. And that's very different from our generation.

46:17 >> Do you have anything like that? Like an unlock for people who are curious about AI just starting? >> So so first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee I mean I I >> probably aren't working there. >> Yeah. Yeah. If they're not using AI >> They're probably not going to be there. >> more AI than I do. So so that's just a moot question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do want to turn that question to talk to those who are more in the public, especially the generation right now who you're already professionals. You you are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are. And And the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. You don't really, other than anxiety, you don't really know how you can get to AI. I think I do want to encourage people who feel that way is that find a kid, either your own kid or your nephew or your niece that they are likely to be younger than 25 year old.

47:32 Almost all of them are already using AI in some way. And be curious. Ask them to just show you how they use AI. And don't worry about this as a technology, but be curious about the future world that they will live in, your kid will be living your grandkid will be living, your student will be living, and try to just imagine that you're going to take that journey into that world anyway, and they can be your guide.

48:09 >> Yeah. >> And just not worry about that I never learned computer science or I don't know which app I can open. Just let the young person in your life who you already trust or have a relationship with hold your hand for a weekend or for for a session and show you that this is a world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is, and it can be empowering. And if you do find it troublesome, if you do find it imperfect, by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are, your voice can be heard better.

48:51 >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious, develop your agency, work on it, and thank you so much for info done for your work. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.