How patriarchy hurts us...all of us

0:00 [Music] hello and welcome to the your parenting Mojo podcast and we are here in Vancouver at iris's house thanks so much for having us you have welcomed us into your home into your family and it's really lovely to be here with you we're here for the Parenting Beyond power book tour you were absolutely instrumental in organ in the culture talks event which

0:31 was so much fun and before we came here you and I were on a coaching call a couple months ago and I recounted a story about how my dad and Caris were in the grocery store together and my I was across the entire produce section from him and she was I think three at the time and was kind of kneeling up in the grocery store cart and he said to her her sit down in such a loud tone of

1:04 voice that I was shocked and I looked over and you could see that she was really shocked too and she just kind of sat and and in that moment I kind of thought okay yeah we're we're not doing that and so I recounted the story on the call and you said that you had been thinking about the way that patriarchy shows up in your life as well and I said oh I've been think about recording an

1:31 episode on that topic and so uh so I think that that conversation sparked something for you right where did that go for you um so I um I was like oh yes because I started thinking about how I do that like if Malaya um doesn't like go to bed and I would just repeat myself and in a louder voice and a more menacing voice like go to bed and then like you know and um so I started um

2:03 like oh this is not very comfortable and um and yet when those instances happen that's my go-to so yeah and um that was that just sort of started me my reflection of of what are the things that I do that I wouldn't really want um but then I do it anyway mhm so we had this conversation on the coaching call and that could sort of sparked this

2:34 train of thought for you and we decided that there was enough there that you said let's talk about this when you're in Vancouver and I said let's talk about this so can you start out maybe by just letting us know a little bit about you who you are in the world where you come from so that we can kind of be grounded together yeah um so Iris and I'm originally from the Philippines and I came here to to Canada um as a landed

3:01 immigrant in 2005 and um got married met my now husband here um and for many years we tried um conceiving and um finally after finally I if it's the final but so so right now I have um 8-year-old daughter and um so I'm most most L uh stay-at-home

3:32 mom and and I do a lot of unpaid work which means that I um do volunteer work Community work and supporting other people but I don't get like money um from it so so yeah and there's no um salary either in housework as many of us know so so that I I think that that would be and and I've been um in your parenting group and learning group for several years now yeah okay

4:04 and so when when I think of you there are two things I primarily think of yeah one of which is your silliness yes I think you may be the silliest person I know oh oh that's an honor I know I knew you would take it that way yeah yeah and the other is your empathy MH can you tell us what that's like for you um my empathy has is a gift and also I don't want to

4:34 to think of it as a curse but I used to think of it as a curse but I feel deeply about other people and um I have several experiences in my life that I can draw from and connect with other people um and why it's not uh so much of a gift is because I carry all this emotional burden um with me and I think about oh what happened like for example in the membership especially the taming your

5:06 triggers Workshop I go like oh what has happened to this to this mom and like you know and and I'm just trying to be like okay um this is not my burden to carry and I show compassion I try to do what I can but um this person is capable of you know um navigating her own ch ches or something but it's hard like it's an everyday thing for me yeahh yeah okay and so um so we're we're here to

5:38 talk about patriarchy and and I know that there are ways that this showed up in your family of origin with each of your parents and obviously you're an immigrant into Canada and you were telling me we were chatting beforehand and and you said that you had explained the some of these stories to folks who identify as white who have always lived in this area and that they saw a lot of commonalities in their lives as well so

6:02 can you can you tell us how how did this show up for your mom maybe first and and your dad yeah um so there's this story of I don't really remember this happening but because my mother has repeated it many many times it has become part of my memory and and she said something about like when I was a toddler she trained me so that's the word she trained me to um bring my father slippers house slippers to the door when

6:32 he comes home from work and um she was so happy about that and um and I I get it like you know you are you are raising a good girl and um so so so that was the thing and then but I I thought of it like oh okay um oh I was a good girl and I was my mother was training me to be this good woman and all those things but then I realized um when I when Malaya

7:02 was also a toddler she wakes up and then she goes oh mama let's play and I would say oh have you said good morning to Daddy and then I so that kept on going that went on and I thought this sounds familiar like why is this familiar and and then I realized oh ah this is my mother training my child to to you know please the man of the family and um to

7:34 be good and you know and because sometimes Malaya wasn't interested in saying good morning to to her dad and and so I just started to look at my own parenting in in that lens I guess and and you know trying to un also understand myself like hey it's not that I'm bad it's good that I'm aware of this and I shouldn't blame myself but I'm more aware of it so so yeah that was the

8:05 kind of like aha moment for me yeah and I'm always wondering if your mom missed an opportunity you could have had slippers in one hand and a Martini in the other yeah or beer yeah to take it to the next level yeah yeah yeah were there other ways that that you saw this showing up for your mom when you were younger yeah so so my family so I grew up um in the 80s late 70s ' 80s in the Philippines

8:34 and I think um I would not I the the expectation is that the husband goes the dad goes out to is the bread winner and the mom stays home and does the house chores but it was different um for my family it was my mother who worked as a dress maker and and my father staying home as the house husband and and doing um

9:04 laundry washing dishes cooking um and um and fetching water we we did not have indoor plumbing so we fetch water from the village well or something that sounds like Woman's Work yes yeah so so my father did the Woman's Work my mother did the man's work quote unquote um and yet my mother sh she wanted the the traditional role and so she was kind of

9:35 resentful like why does she have to be the one um working for for all of us and um and I I understand her like when she comes home from work my father would say we don't have anything for dinner and then she goes to the wet Market to get fish on credit we have this paper thing and and because my father doesn't want to go out he's ashamed to to get things on credit and

10:05 so my mother has this expression wherein she says I'm I'm the one playing the music and I'm the one dancing so and I I totally get that and um but then also my my father would do the the housework but then you know because it's not the expected it's not the stereotype both of of them were so unhappy yeah about it and and like oh you should do this and you should do that and yet even if my mother was the

10:36 bread winner um if there were some decisions that my father did not approve of he would get mad so it was it was confusing for me because I started becoming feeling ashamed of my father because um you know all the dads went to work and mine didn't so um um and just being poor as well and and so it was confusing mhm yeah do you think it really affected

11:07 your dad's sense of who he was as a as a person as a man yes yeah I I I I think of this as my father because he was doing women's work he was devalued and he lost his dignity um and and that's double wh because um because women's work is not valued and he's a man doing a woman's work and so it's even more like you know um

11:39 devalued and also he's not unlike my other neighbors like we have the Macho culture and they' be like drinking in the corner store and but he doesn't do those things and so he's so different he did not belong anywhere and um and yet he wasn't as good as the other Housewives when it comes to say laundry so my mother's relatives would be snickering about our white uniform because it's not it's not as white as it

12:10 should be because my father did not bleach it in the sun and all those things and so um yeah I I just I just think now and look back and how my father was just devalued every day and trying to assert his I don't know um I don't know his value but then also yeah um he's trying and yet he's not getting that he doesn't get the

12:42 respect from his children y he did not get the respect from his children yeah I'm also wondering about the emotional climate of your family uh was it okay to express emotions were you rewarded or punished for expressing emotions by either either of your parents yeah so emotion is like um you hold it you hold it you hold it and then it like it's just erupts like a volcano and then and then it says oh it's your fault like I

13:15 was just being patient and you push me and you push me and now I'm I'm like you know over flowing with this anger and um it's because you did it like you you know and and um we were walking on eggshells because my father was silly that's where I got my silliness from but then he has this moments where he also just erupts and we we didn't know like what was that

13:48 which were we going to get yeah is it the silliness that we can go along with or is it the explosion the anger yeah uh yeah that's that's really tough yeah that uncertainty mhm yeah yeah and and I I noticed that with me too with Malaya I like I I let her okay do this okay you can have more additional screen time additional screen time and then it's been 2 hours give me that I told you

14:14 it's earlier I give you more than what we agreed on and now you don't give it to me give it to me like so I'm like uh that Lord of the Rings voice yeah um so yeah and and also understanding my mother in that role um I think I shared with you this story that when she was in her late teens she worked as a nanny for

14:45 a widower and um took care of his children and then she got pregnant by her boss that that widower and so she she got pregnant out of bedlock and her I don't know 17 the the age always changes but late teens and my uncle her older brother was so angry and there was a family meeting and he the my uncle said um fenny ruina

15:20 that's my mother ruina um we should send her away to another Island because she she brought shame to our family and let's consider her dead just like erased right and and so so he was adamant that you know um that did not happen fortunately but I don't know if it's the if is not um if it's like uh irony or Poetic Justice I don't know what the

15:51 word is but um a a year after or something my uncle that Uncle who was um so mad at my the same person the same the same brother got a woman pregnant out of wedlock and there was nothing there was there was no like um consider him dead bring him to another Island no there was nothing and that double standard it's just makes me angry and I know that um my older brother and that

16:25 other cousin of mine they're very close in age so you know like how dare you say this to my mother who's a woman and just erased him and you did the same thing to another woman yeah so so my mother's strategy in life has been to um you know not to rock the boat keep your head down um try to be a peacemaker and um appeal to the emotion and you know and and I

16:55 used to be really mad at her like why don't you just do this and do that and not knowing how hard it was for her that it for her it was survival y because that same brother sent her to the city um for the dress making class which was her livelihood and fed all of us so you know it's it's It's Tricky yeah and and I'm just I mean that that story

17:25 just it's so heartbreaking but it's still happening today right women are still policing sorry men are still policing women's bodies today I'm thinking about you know the overturning of roie w in the states and and how it's always the woman's fault and the pregnancy is the woman's thing to deal with and I I forget the author of the book there's a book called ejaculate responsibly and it's like there are often two people involved in this thing

17:51 and one of them has no responsibility and the other one Bears all of the responsibility um so this is still happening today yeah um and so I guess so as we start to you know we see you growing up and trying to make sense of all of this you're becoming a teenager a young woman and moving to how old were you when you moved to Canada oh I was in my early 30s okay so um so how did how

18:16 did some of this did you think about this stuff when when you were sort of in those teenage through early adulthood made adulthood years yeah um so in second year I had my first boyfriend um and um he will remain a name and we can give a pseudonym if you like yeah yeah and um one of the things that so it was secret because you're not supposed to have to get into a relationship in in in the Philip my

18:46 Filipino culture growing up um until you finish school and that means you're working already which is you know um and so one of the things was that the mother of that um young man was um of course they suspected but we never said you know we never admitted to it um and then um so one of the things she said to him was that number one I was asmatic so

19:17 it's kind of a negative like why would you get a partner who's sickly yeah and another that I'm not good in housework okay I'm I'm looking around at your place the first thing I thought when I walked in here was it is so clean in here oh it's not the tidiest I'll give you that but it is clean in here yeah yeah but um well I have to to thank um somebody who helps us clean but we we

19:46 do our best but but that's the thing and and I was very um sassy and I would be I would be not not I I won't say this in front of my um boyfriend's mother but I would say oh you need somebody to cook and for your son why why don't you get a um a housekeeper you don't need a wife or that and of course I didn't say I was just like I was just saying this to my

20:11 boyfriend and like you know cuz why didn't you say it to his mom um because it will be disrespectful yes cuz she's the Elder yes so in front of her I was like oh hello like that you know so um and so it was around this time that the relationship got wonky um understandably and I told myself um I will not marry a Filipino and and but I also have to admit I'm not very popular with

20:40 Filipinos because I speak my mind and like again I'm not good in housework the in-laws will say like no she is not a good choice and but somehow um I had this idea that if I marry a non Filipina or somebody who did not grow up in the Philippines that they will be someone who will share in the housework and um and oh like maybe in the in the abroad so abroad Like Us Canada

21:12 Scandinavia and so so of course I was so naive to to be thinking this and also there was this one um experience which really was um kind of a it was very significant to me um our house was kind of a hub for people from other provinces or from the countryside and there was one time that there was a woman who came in a cousin of a cousin like I don't remember anymore um and she arrived at

21:42 her house she had um her hair bald like um like cut crew cut or something very short and that is very uncommon in the Philippines and so I asked her and and she said she had typhoid fever and her hair fell out but my other cousin said that her husband cut her hair because he saw her talking to another man and I was just and of course I have neighbors who you know there's domestic

22:15 violence but that woman the the act of somebody else like a man um cutting a woman's hair I I did not have word for patriarchy or domestic VI but I just felt like something is wrong there like like like I was just like something is very wrong and and now she and at that time she was at our place she was trying to like you know cool down everything until her husband comes down or forgives

22:47 her or whatever like but I cannot forget her hair yeah and actually that's reminding me of when you cut your hair yes why did you cut your hair I I you told me at the time and I'm not remembering right now yeah it was partly that experience it was me saying I'm cutting my own hair short even if it's not expected no one will cut my hair well of course there was a a hair stylist who did it um a

23:15 hair cutter but for me it's taking back that act of like first of all like Beauty yeah what is beauty what is woman uh like what is feminine beauty it's not always long hair and um that experience oh just uh just a little bit of context with cutting hair um fathers also threaten their teenage daughters that if they still go on with

23:47 their secret boyfriends or whatever that their hair will be cut short yeah it's like a visible shaming right yeah yeah and so to me that was just like no you know what no I'm doing it no one will do it so so it was it was just me I did not do anything like a performance art or anything but I from what I remember your daughter thought it was performance art didn't she yes she had a pretty strong reaction

24:14 to it didn't she yes because her um concept of feminine beauty is long hair and she was just like are you still the same mother that I have and you know it's still me and um until now she's saying like don't don't do that again and maybe I'll still do it now I need permission from my own doctor oh my goodness things are changing what's happening okay so so we skipped ahead a little bit right so you

24:43 were you you had this boyfriend that didn't work out ultimately you got married in your 30s which is relatively late yes yes because I was in my mid 20s I was called an old maid in our village yeah yeah and so then you came to Canada yes and you met your husband line dancing I found out last time we were here yes Scottish country dance yeah and so you got married and so were there kind of inklings of anything

25:13 prating in your mind before you had Malia because for me I didn't notice any of this stuff until after Caris was born right we seemed like equals until that point so I'm wondering did you see anything before that point or was it only after Malia was born and they you started to notice these things what I noticed was myself um asking Richard what would you like for dinner and even if I want something else then I would

25:38 like sort of adjust and even the Bedtime like I'm more of a morning uh a day person and he's more like and and I adjust myself um for for so that we will be in Rhythm unless we otherwise we will be like passing ships right but I think it was was really um when Malaya was born that um things just like was clear okay how what was

26:09 clear um well also to mention that Richard is retired so he has this you know he stays home but um there is more pressure on me from myself like I perceive Richard um that he expects me to still do a lot of the housework and he does it but it's not in the time timeline that I'm thinking so I

26:39 so I'll do it and one other thing is I'm not bringing in um income like money and I feel like oh I have to do this because I I will make myself worthy of being here of existing and my contribution is doing all these things um in the house and and with the children uh with not children with with Malaya so so how does that show up in terms of how you expect your

27:11 your husband to do things like what what's there so so for me being a man I have this expectation that you know you are even if there's a storm around you you stay grounded and and you are very like okay let's do this let's do that but in our relationship it's it's me who's like that because I love Logistics and planning and like yes you hey yeah yeah this one this one you excel at Logistics and planning I have to

27:40 say and and I just love it and and Richard just prefers to be like doing his own thing and not to be directed and and all those things and and he gets overwhelmed he of course also being a neurode Divergent person he gets overwhelmed with when there are so many things going on and and to me I'm just like why can't you just you know why can't you do this and why can't you understand this um and then there was a

28:13 time when I went all like kamikazi or you know I I was um nagging him like you should have done this you should have done that and then um we went to bed I thought there was nothing because he did not reply to me but in the middle of the night he woke up and I came back from the washroom and he just said next time um next time Iris you marry a neurotypical and I just saw I just felt

28:44 the hurt M of of me like expecting him to be somebody else that that you know he's he's not what I expect uh a man man man man a manly man should be um and um yeah and and how he is hurt by you know not just being a neurodivergent but um you know the class thing and how he feels he does

29:17 not belong and in what way uh because he's not um he's white but he's not the typical white person with um loud voice and like a lawyer tall like you know and and some of his siblings are and just just like being different M that you don't you don't um take the box of a masculine man right and so like if you're not a masculine man but you're a man so you know um and and I feel that I

29:52 and I've felt the the anger in him especially in the beginning of our relationship like you know being ostra uh ostracized being left out not belonging like he feels like he does not belong MH and this is his country well this is my country now but he was raised he was born and he was raised here and um just not feeling you belong it's in the place where you grew up just you know well I mean I think a lot of that

30:23 comes from we have such a narrow idea of of what you have to do right to to be a man of how you can look how you can present yourself how you can sound and that if you don't fit with that then I mean if if you identify as a man then you're kind of becoming more womanly right if you if you're not big enough and tall enough and loud enough and then and and of course in in a patriarchal

30:45 culture there's nothing worse really than being a woman yes so it it's sort of looked down on right and of course the same goes for women and and the policing of women's bodies and that if you look a c certain way then you are womanly and if you don't look that way you're not womanly you do the housework and yeah don't rock the boat and yeah what kind of woman are you you don't know how to do this or you don't know

31:07 how to do that and I remember um my parents telling me growing up that if I don't learn this work or if I'm if I don't shut my mouth if I'm very mouthy that my husband will return me was like oh if you don't behave in a certain way uh we I I think your husband will return you to us like return to the like back to sender you know you're not the first person I've heard that from actually

31:35 yeah I was doing a workshop in Colorado and Noto no no um a Mexican-American immigrant said the same threats were made MH in their family and so yeah it seems like you fit within this role and you do these things or you'll get sent back again MH right mean it's C to the ultimate you don't belong right yes yes is and we're going to send you back yeah and and just remembering too when

32:06 Richard said to my mother that we wanted to get married my mother was so relieved she was like oh like that and it's like at last my daughter is sold like you know it's like she got on the train she's not left by the train and like all those things and like like what is like women should have a man or should have good marriage and then after that oh why don't you have children and so all this

32:34 expectations you know yeah I I I definitely felt that as well and it's it's almost like it's expected yeah and it's it's so expected it's like there's no other choice yeah it's not that nobody told you there's no choice it's just that what else is there yeah there's the shame and humiliation of being a single woman yeah in your 30s 40s 50s an old maid or you can bypass that shame and

33:05 marry somebody yeah and then you should have children because like that's next yeah yeah yeah um and yeah I think about I I'm not sure if I'm saying her name correctly Zan Vin is I think how it's spelled and and she writes a lot on Facebook and has written about how about that exact thing and that what if we were to tell our girls now and even even our boys that there are other choices that that you don't have to assume right

33:35 because this is this is socialized into our kids all the skipping games they play in school all the teasing of each other of who fancies who all setting us up for this is what's next get ready for it and what if we talked with our kids now about you there you could there could be another option you don't have to do this this is one of a number of options yeah and and that option thing that you don't

33:59 have to choose right away you can just like test drive like you know test it and and Malaya has told me that she wants to be a an artist and a model and you know like musician whatever performer and she was so at one point she was like oh what should I be mama like and I said well you don't have to decide now you can just test it and you can be all those things it's it's fine

34:24 like you know and and the same with um having a boyfriend I always some will um will ask oh so do you have a boy just teasing her and then and I will say or girlfriend yes or transgender friend yeah non-binary friend nonbinary friend yeah yeah and why are we teasing eight-year-olds about having a a boyfriend or a girlfriend right that's just part of that socialization yeah so so I'm curious about how this shows up

34:54 in your parenting now when you're interacting with Malaya when you when obviously you're trying to interrupt that narrative a little bit that that she's getting from other people about the sort of siset normative path are there what what other ways do you see patriarchy showing up sort of as a force to be reckoned with and that you working to dismantle it um I think um well not I think I know that working on my problem solving skills is part of me teaching

35:26 Malaya that like you know you have a voice that it's not just me who's older than you who who is your parent who knows about like you know mother is mother knows best that that's like you know the person knows best what we are expert of our own selves and um creating that space for her to say this is not working for me um what can we do and and she comes up with really great ideas

35:57 um and and for me to accept it and and for me to be not thinking like oh um my when I was a child I would never I would have been slapped for saying that or for doing that and you know this is different this is a different way of parenting and yet I also recognize that I have a lot of hurt from the past and sometimes I feel like it's so unfair you know before I was not allowed to do this

36:28 and now she's allowed I let her do that and she's not grateful or she's not you know all those things and all those baggage that I carry with me um so I'm I'm learning to just set down to set down this heavy baggage emotional baggage and just see Malaya for for who she is and for who she wants to be rather than me um trying to Define her

36:59 or you know telling her this is what you should do or that's what you should do yeah I mean to me that's that's what this work is all about right because what you wanted what I wanted when we were little was to be seen as who we really were and instead of that we got you know put the parts of ourselves that are too big put them in a box ignore them pretend they're not there anymore

37:23 and only present to the world this sanitized version of ourselves the version that cleans and doesn't talk back and doesn't have ideas and so what you're doing is you're saying yes I would have been punished for speaking in that way but that doesn't make it inherently bad yes and I can learn to heal myself so that I can hear that from her and hear Mama this is not working for me and work to find a way that actually works for both of you

37:55 I mean to me that that heading in that direction is patriarchy dismantling patriarchy healing work and and just yeah that's really true and also accepting her observation because sometimes she can be so spoton it hurts in what way um I I may have shared this in the group um one time uh I was um answering emails or something and she was on her iPad and she said Mama I'm hungry it's like okay let me finish this one more

38:24 paragraph and of course the paragraph was very long and like Mama I'm hungry and she must have said several times and then Richard comes comes here to the kitchen door and said oh um it's dinner time and I stood up right away and they like oh okay okay you know I'm not finishing the paragraph and look you know and then later on um just like a few minutes after she she was still in her iPad and she said Mama why is it

38:51 that if I ask for food you you will let me wait but if it's daddy you you um gave him food right away or you you know got going and I was like spot on yeah and and the things that they observe because they don't have all the Decades of cultural conditioning that we have they see it for how it really is and we can learn from that I think

39:22 there's so much we can learn from children that instead of us thinking that our role is we have to teach children to be in a certain way that we can learn from them how we're showing up and whether that's aligned with our values right because that's kind of not aligned with your values no and and so I made the con um conscious decision that I won't be a lawyer for both Richard and Malaya because um I'm I'm like The

39:48 Negotiator like Malaya will tell me oh when daddy tells when daddy tells me this thing I so for example she heard hurt her finger and then Richard would say like oh when I was a boy um Malaya I had this injury and I did not cry and all those things and she was telling me that um she did not feel it was helpful and you know and um so I asked her what do you think would be helpful and Oh

40:15 Daddy should just say okay let's get the Band-Aid and things like that um Richard does that but he is when know was like you know Compares himself to to him and the same with Richard Richard would um complain to Malay how how hard how difficult Malaya was and I'm kind of like the between and and I will say to Malaya before I would be like oh you should understand Daddy because he this he that it his experience but now I've

40:44 just like ask her what would be helpful to you and and not to sort of rationalize why her dad did that or said that um and the same with with Richard I will explain that um you know Malaya has a need that she wants she wants to be heard she needed like connection for example or something and and she was acting that way um and and sometimes when the three of us are here they talk

41:15 to me and like oh but daddy said oh but I said I would say in my Philipino accent oh the two of you you talk to each other I'm not a lawyer you're not paying me H you talk to each other and then they would go silent well I I think that's a really important point because I think that women often think well patriarchy is a man's thing right patriarch is about men being in charge and I a point that I

41:44 often make in workshops is that we are not neutral parties in this we can be conduits of patriarchy and I'm thinking about an example that we talked about before right before we started recording where I was just a few days ago in a parking lot and uh and Caris and I were sitting in the car outside waiting for my husband to be in a store and in the car next to us there's a family getting in and I hear the mother say to the

42:10 toddler you better get in that car seat or Daddy's going to get really angry and so we're not neutral parties in this we are conduits for it right we we the power flows down through us and I do work with some parents who say but my mom was the one that was in charge and so how you know how does that fit within a patriarchal culture and I guess my response to that is that you know any

42:34 culture where there is this power Dynamic this power over is an sort of inherently patriarchal culture um and even if that power is Flowing down primarily through the woman right and because if it was a feminist culture it would be a shared Dynamic which is what we're working towards so um so I guess you know a lot of people listening to this are going to be female identifying and are going to be thinking well yeah

43:05 patriarchy sucks and it's all about the man's role and the man's got to change what he does but I really see that what we do is important too and that we need to recognize our role in perpetuating this in right in in propping up the system in protecting the man at the top of the family from any sort of emotional discomfort pain um and and and sort of using our power over our children which itself is also a patriarchal death yes

43:32 yeah and and I do that too like like that woman like oh watch when once you're I I do that like um oh especially if I don't want to deal with a thing it's like oh you wait for for Dad he he will say what like you know and and but then I also feel like that's not a good example for my daughter like why do you always have to wait for this this man to say something like you know and and I

44:00 don't want her to to be that that just waiting for the boss or waiting for this to to give the stamp of approval so and so what I often would suggest is like um okay let's talk every time I say we will have a family meeting Malaya gets like oh I don't want because she's afraid or what what the consequence is on her but I just want everybody to be heard and not just this the power is just in this one

44:32 person is like a white male or even if he wasn't white or something but yeah yeah yeah so where are you now right where are you with this is what's your Leading Edge of practice is it in caring for yourself is it in your relationship with Richard is it your relationship with Malia what's really present on a life for you at the moment yeah um it's it's really resting when I feel I need a rest and that I'm worthy of rest and that I

45:05 don't have to do all the dishes and to do all the housework that they you're doing so well I see dishes on the counter yeah I had to work hard um that that I'm worthy of resting and and one interesting thing is that Richard told me just a few months ago that he thinks that it's easy for me to rest because I'll just say okay I'll take a nap I usually say I listen to my

45:36 meditation which and then segue to napping because it makes me feel relaxed um and he said to me that oh you find it so easy to to rest and I said oh excuse me no I have to really like I like S Talk myself into it and and I realized that he has this pressure too like of oh I have to um do this to fix that to fix this and my list is really long and you

46:06 know like he himself has that pressure of achieving being productive and all those things and I I just laugh because like he thinks I'm good in resting and I think he's good in resting and like let's just chill yeah y for capitalism right you're you have value if you're producing yeah and you are like nothing if you haven't achieved something for the day yeah so you know yeah yeah so rest rest is the core for

46:38 you and and noticing where this shows up with Malaya yes and um that Dynamics Dynamic of like okay let's ask your dad mhm and waiting like the world stops because we will wait for Dad to say his his opinion so or his give his approval so yeah is there anything else you'd like to share up um I have this hope Vision that our

47:13 children our daughters will um be comfortable in speaking up and being understanding and also like asserting like hey I need this I need to rest or whatever like I need to do this I want to do this and I will adjust but you won't you men or their Partners will not be the in an altar or something so um that's my hope and I guess my That's

47:47 My Hope and also there's a lot of work for me to do for that to happen yeah yes because she's not going to get to 18 and suddenly realize that for herself she's she's either going to practice that with you or she's going to learn the same things that we learned yeah yeah um where where yeah where the man is is sort of at at the top of the the food chain and and you know I want to be

48:13 clear that that patriarchy hurts men too this is this is not uh sort of a male bashing thing um it it hurts men differently I think and maybe not to the same extent but it hurts it hurts men as well so um so I think that that ideally what we are moving towards is allowing all of us you and me and our children to be able to live our whole expression and that you know we both happen to be

48:39 raising children who identify as girls right now and and so the idea of knowing yourself and being able to have your own ideas is Forefront but also you know if we were parents of boys then then allowing them the ability to fully Express their feelings yeah and be in deep relationships with somebody else would be something that I would be definitely very focused on so yeah yeah it's it's really profound work it really is yeah thanks for being willing

49:10 to go on camera and uh share the depths of your marriage and your parenting with us I really appreciate it thank you at the back of my mind I'm just thinking oh my relatives will see this anyway I'm I think my gift to the world is my story so I'm letting it go and look you know whatever comment they will have they will just have to say it to me and I will respond and they're too far

49:36 away to shave your head by and large I think yes I will shave my head first before they do it thank you so much so great to be with yeah I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed being with Iris between the time when we recorded that chat and today I developed the idea of offering three things that you can try if you want to put the ideas from the episode into practice I started

50:01 out calling them mild medium and spicy and when I was in touch with Carrie cavers for the moms Against Racism episode she kind of called me in on that naming and she said it wasn't sitting well with her she said that foods that are spicy come from racialized cultures and because whiteness is centered these dishes are often referred to in an othering way or a discussed with language that imp implies they're abnormal and she went on to say that she

50:25 was sure about associating spiciness with the hardest or the most challenging or uncomfortable actions to take of course my intent was not to harm with this labeling but my white privilege means I'd never had to consider that until now and I kind of assume if you've made it this far into the episode you've heard us say the word patriarchy this often you're probably also going to be okay with hearing about white privilege so I really appreciated that calling in

50:49 from Carrie I took her point I'm in the process of changing the naming to the Curious learning and growth stages you'll still hear it referred to as mild medium and spicy in old episodes and even in some new episodes that are conversations that were recorded before she and I had that chat and it shows up in some workshops too which we have to approach very systematically to make sure that we catch all of the mentions and we don't confuse people but just

51:14 know that that change is coming so to go on to our curious practice for this episode I would suggest the first thing to start doing is noticing patriarchal ideas when they show up in the media that we're consuming with our children so I actually have an example right here which you'll be able to see if you're watching this on YouTube it's a book that Caris and I reread recently we haven't looked at in quite a while

51:34 called yesterday I had the blues and it links colors with feelings and the main character's experiences in his family although the boy himself isn't named and I bought this book because it's important to us that we read books featuring racially diverse characters and I particularly appreciated this one because it shows a black family just living their lives and not explicitly dealing with or trying to teach white readers about racism but when we reread it I noticed quite a lot of things that

52:02 I hadn't seen before the main character's dad has got the Grays because he got a parking ticket and the boy knows he'd better not ask for a new skateboard today dad is in the role of being a provider and the family money manager mom is barely mentioned except to say that she got the Reds which now I realize kind of plays into the angry blackw stereotype and the kids run away from her when it happens the boy's

52:30 sister Sasha kind of predictably likes dancing because Sasha got the pinks she likes butterfly hair clips and things that make the boy want to hop on the next bus so this is very clearly communicating that pink is a girl's color and boys should distance themselves from anything associated with femininity as far and as fast as possible this is how these kinds of ideas are transmitted to our children and I don't want to pick on this book

53:00 because I don't think it's necessarily worse than any other book is just one that I happen to have reread recently that I thought would make an example to share so the Curious step is just to start noticing some of these things and then the learning step is to start having a conversation about them with our children and you're actually doubly lucky on that one because I have an example to share with you so parents in the parenting membership have been

53:23 asking me for a module on how to talk with children about big topics like white supremacy and patriarchy and capitalism so I've been recording bits of conversations that I have with Caris on these topics and as luck would have it I recorded my conversation with her about this book she did give me permission for me to record it and to share it although she does tend to feel a bit embarrassed when I'm recording so she doesn't say as much as she would if

53:47 we were just chatting between the two of us she also speaks in her silly voice so you'll hear me translate what she says several times what you're about to hear is not very different from what I just explained to you but many parents tell me they don't know how to have these conversations with their children so I'm hoping that this recording will help you a little bit with that okay so we just read what is the

54:10 book called yesterday I had the blues right and you notice the pinks immediately yeah um did you notice anything else about what the book was talking about the first thing that the boy had was a blue mhm blue okay and who who who is who is blue what color is blue associated with boys yeah okay and

54:40 what's what's the mom's role in the family to do what with the children take care of the children yeah get them to do what they're told right and how did she do that right by getting angry yeah and Daddy's role is what driving around paying for things

55:10 right Daddy's the bread winner Daddy's the one who makes the money so um so this book I appreciate this book because there are black characters in it who are not talking about race right they're not educating us about race they aren't uh coping with racism they're just living their lives which I think is really cool and then at the same

55:43 time they're also reinforcing gender Norms right they're remember the what what did what happened to the boy when he wanted when he saw the pinks when he saw his sister doing the pinks right right I want to catch the next bus so um so it's saying that that anything to do with girls and femininity and pinkness is bad and and boys should get away from that as fast as they can so it's really hard to find books that

56:13 fully reflect our values right because even when we want to read books by black authors talking about black people just enjoying their lives and having fun then we come with other ideas that maybe don't fit with our values yeah tired huh no but you got the purples no they didn't did they is there anything else you wanted to or the oranges no I mean yes Grandma had the

56:44 yellows didn't she but not the oranges yeah yellows were similar to the oranges I don't censor the books that Caris reads and I don't plan to start now but we will will definitely keep talking about these ideas as they come up there are obviously a lot more than three steps that you can take on this topic but the one growth idea I'll leave you with for now is to start noticing the ways that patriarchy shows up in

57:09 your relationship with your child and maybe even with your spouse if you're a woman in a relationship with a man do you try to get your children to squash their big feelings so as not to inconvenience your partner do you use Daddy's power and authority to gain their compliance by telling them they don't want to see how angry he will be when he finds out what they've done do you make yourself smaller and minimize your needs and take up less space in the

57:34 relationship with your children and your partner so as not to inconvenience anyone but perhaps particularly your partner you could start by noticing these things and maybe a future growth step could be to deliberately start practices that heal whatever you're seeing show up if you're not a woman in a relationship with a man then what you notice and your practices will most likely be different but patriarchy kind of has a habit of showing up in a lot of

57:58 places so I would be surprised if it wasn't in your relationship with your partner especially in your relationship with your children because it's a system of domination that you most likely learned from your own parents if you're a dad listening to this who has a female partner then start by looking out for times when your partner hushes the children when you're around look for times when you use a loud voice or threats to get them to do what you want

58:22 them to do look for your partner not express a preference for what she wants to do or deferring to your preference these would all be signs some of a vast majority May many many many more signs that patriarchal power is here in your relationship and a really big part of healing from that is making sure that everyone in the family has a chance to be heard so I hope that gives you just a few ideas to get you started in your own

58:49 practice or to build on your existing ideas as we all work to heal for all of a [Music] benefit