“When You’re 13 You DON’T Really Understand The Call You’re Making” | Kyle Edmund

0:00 When you play Novak, the first thing you play all these guys is they have an aura and you feel it. It even starts in the change room walking to the court. He's not there waiting for you. I'm waiting for him. And even on the court, you're playing the match. He's dictating the crowd. You feel he has control of the situation. There's no doubt anyone who wants to be a player has like an inner belief that they think they're going to make it. I didn't really say that out loud, but inside I felt like I had something a bit of an X factor that I could keep improving. So, as a player, you want to get paid more. They are the product. The one thing I would say is the slams provide the most money to the sport for the players. Is it up to the tours to reach that standard? They need to provide more first before attacking the slams. I find it hard initially because I spent all this time and effort for 20 years. Almost feels like failure that you then give up in sort of one day. And I I struggled to get my head around that.

1:03 business. Fascinating. >> Kyle, we are so excited for this. Now, I I always consider myself as a more talented tennis player uh between us. Uh sadly, he grew to like 6' 10 and became a beast of a server and now kicks my ass. But it's so good to have a tennis legend in the studio. So, thank you so much for joining us, man. >> Yeah, thanks. Uh, thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here. Uh, excited to chat to you guys.

1:30 >> It was actually just it was the one thing that we used to really fight about. >> Really? >> Tennis. We're pretty close and we were pretty chill growing up, but the tennis court >> I don't know what it did. It just >> I had serious anger management issues. >> I still do. >> Something about it though, isn't there? >> Yeah, exactly. It's that sort of onetoone personal battle and how many times have you broken? So I think the short answer is two. Um but so when I first started playing my dad when I first time I went to court he said if you break a racket you throw your racket you're done. You're not you're not playing again. And my dad was one of those guys when he said that he he meant it. And um it was only until I was probably 24 25 in an off season just remote court that the offseason was going along. I was getting more tired, getting more um agitated, less patience and then just one drill. I just had enough and went and uh but I never did it. And then um I did it one time in a match again. So yeah, I I try not to but yeah. When you see like Medvidev like just absolutely destroy a racket, >> do you think that's acceptable? It's pretty disrespectful to the other player. Puts everyone in a tough situation. Is that okay?

2:52 >> No, I think it's I think it's fine. When I played, I kind of viewed it as like, oh, he's lost his sort of, you know, patience. He's lost his composure. But now when I'm not playing, I think it's great cuz it's it's like people actually love to see it. That's why, you know, when they give the warning and it's like code violation, I guess, like for the integrity of everything, but it's like what >> why like what was it actually done? The guys, he's the problem. He's lost his racket. No one else has >> has lost out and it's been good entertainment. So, >> and he's just showing you that he's rattled.

3:28 >> Yeah. Right. No, it's the only the only time where it is bad is the grass courts because it puts dents into the grass which obviously you don't want. But hardcore clay court, um I I I like to see it. I didn't do it loads myself, but yeah, it's fun to watch, isn't it? Rather than just walking to the other side and not showing any emotion. >> What was your favorite surface >> growing up? Was clay. I played a lot on it. It was good for my game. The way I played it, rewarded shots, but the tour is predominantly played on hard courts.

3:55 I'd say 70% obviously start the year through to spring before the clay and the grass season. As soon as Wimbledon finishes, then you got hard courts the rest of the year. So naturally I found myself transitioning to hard courts and liking them and my best results in terms of tour events and Australian Open came on hard. >> Okay, can we clear something up? The nationality questioner Andy. >> Yeah, >> I know you as like the British >> number one that took Andy, you know, off the off his perch. Uh when was it probably about 2018 2019 you got to number one right so so you great British player Davis Cup winner >> grand semi- finalist born in Johannesburg >> and lived in Yorkshire >> and have kind of got a South African and Welsh parents >> yeah exactly dad born in Meg I think that's right and then yeah mom over in Durbanian Durban he was in Wales then he went to Zimbabwe and then South Africa and I was and Joe, but our family is predominantly from Durban area and Marittsburg and then I moved to UK when I was three. So I don't remember much at all, but all our family is still over there, cousins and uncles and aunties. So um yeah, I'm very very British now and don't don't really have much much connection there apart from family.

5:13 >> So you went through the whole system, the British system, the British tennis system, came up through the ranks. >> Exactly. Yeah. started when I was 10 in uh obviously in Holland Yorkshire, Beverly in Yorkshire. Um went to David Law there with Richard PL just started up as a summer tennis camp. Typical you know parents put me and my sister in. Didn't want us at home during those six weeks. And then it was actually coach that sort of approached uh my parents and said why don't you think about playing more cuz you know he's he's doing okay. And uh and it just snowball from there. Started doing a few squads after school uh before school 6:30 to late. And then um at 13 I left home to come to London.

5:56 >> And that was when you realized like I need to commit to this and this is going to be a thing. >> Yeah. Especially moving away from home cuz I loved playing other sports in school like rugby, football, cricket, athletics. Uh and I did that around tennis, but when you're sort of moving away from school to go to an academy and get tutoed, it's uh you know, it's a commitment um to do that. So I was like, I need to be on it now. What's that like at 13? Like are you playing tennis for like five hours a day and doing school for five hours a day? Like >> Yeah, kind of. Like you're It's great at that age because you're suddenly shifting from a school focus to tennis on the side where it felt like tennis was the vocal school on the side. At 13 years old, it's the dream.

6:38 >> Yeah. >> And uh yeah, it didn't it didn't benefit my my grades at the end or from my mom wasn't too happy, but that that was the reality. So you suddenly went up playing a lot more tennis. your body's obviously adapting to it. Um, initially I didn't enjoy it just being away from home. I think I even had a conversation and said I want to come home but my dad just said no no stay there and you'll get over it and kind of before I knew it I did.

7:04 >> Thanks. >> Emotionally understanding. >> Exactly. >> But so you really having to make a call on this being a potential career option at that early stage. >> Yeah. which is crazy to think about. And I think at 13, you don't fully understand the call you're making. You're just making a decision because in that moment, it's like this is I feel what I find fun and I want to do. But you don't really think about everything beyond that as in if it doesn't happen, what do I have to fall back on? Um what's the backup plan? It's just this is it and hopefully it goes all right.

7:40 Yeah. >> Knowing all you know now, >> yeah, >> if you had a child at that age, would you say, "Let's roll the dice. You're going in the lotto and we'll see if you can make it to the top." Or would you go, "We're sacrificing academia. We're sacrificing potential career and professional life." >> Yeah. >> And it's very unlikely. >> Yeah. It's the I would say, well, yes, because I got the opportunity to do it. I don't feel like I'd ever want to take away the opportunity. I think there's a balance of it's really hard to know at that age whether you are going to make it. So I think there's got to be an element of being rational and practical and being like well is is this actually going to happen or we just kind of delaying the inevitable. So there's that side of it. But I would definitely say you need something to fall back on. But even with my career that I had, I certainly paid back the sort of sacrifice. I think with with moving away and financially and the time and effort, but even with that, I still feel now that I've retired, you're still a little bit in the unknown of like what am I doing? Like what do I have to fall back on? So, I think that's important. Sorry, you said about something to fall back on. We had Dom Team on the show >> and he was like it costs a million bucks to get your child through the formation stages and the kind of training ages >> to become a pro.

9:04 >> Yeah. No, absolutely. it and we would I wouldn't have been able to do it without the federation. There's there's no doubt about that. Like parents put in money. Um I was very lucky. I was in private schooling and I had to come out of private schooling and go into Beverly Grammar School purely because of tennis just can't do tennis and the private schooling. And it got to a point where then I did get some funding to go to an academy. um and probably till the ages of 18 I I I receive funding but without that there's no chance it would happen.

9:38 >> So in the UK you can be a pro without having very rich parents. >> You can uh but you you need the help and you kind of need to be recognized. So it is that whole give and take of I started tennis at 10 years old. So it was quite late in that thing. So to get the funding, you need to get recognized, which means you need to be good and you need to win some matches. It's very hard to get funding just purely off like, oh, we we like you and you look like you could do something. So um there's that balance of I'm trying to play for the future and the long term and improve for this end goal, but in the meantime, you need some short-term success to make sure you're keeping on track along the way. Well, and I don't know if you I mean I'm sure you would have seen this, but we we've had a few conversations with it where now you've got a model almost like it's an equity investment in some players. So private investment coming in you1 £150,000 let's say and you'll secure 15% of future earnings after the age of 18 for 5 years and it almost becomes an investment in an asset >> which sounds hugely transactional and maybe slightly immoral to some standards but actually if done right and given at the right stage of that career development and it allows you to go to >> I know the morator academy or similar >> exactly and you you do see that I know when I was growing up and on or there are certain players that in that time it's very appealing because you're getting the the finance um power and availability to to fund your career. But obviously for them when you do make it you're then having to give up percentage of your paycheck and then lots of times you see people trying to get out of that and yeah maybe sometimes it's only the way to do it. We never really had that the LTA. It was just purely we're funding your career. We don't we're not asking for anything back when you make it, let's say, cuz you're doing it on your own. But there are some private backers that go down that route. And it depends I think how savvy you are or your parents as well may help you making decisions of yeah let's take cuz we really need the money but actually do we back ourselves enough that when we do make it we then got to accept that we're going to be forking out the whole time percentage wise which you know you don't you don't want to but depends how much in the short term you want to you want to the cash basically you know >> do you remember a moment when you kind of coming up through those junior ranks and you've made those sacrifices and you're committing the way you did where you were like, "Yeah, I'm going to be a top player."

12:12 >> I I was always quite reserved in that way. I never like to think too far ahead. There's no doubt I think anyone who wants to be a player has like an inner belief that they think they're going to make it. like they think they have something that I didn't really say that out loud but inside I felt like I could do something like I had something a bit of an X factor that I could keep improving and you could see that maybe with evidence on results but also evidence on on feeling like you feel yourself improving. You feel yourself getting closer to players on court competing with them uh harder and that was always my my way of doing it. every stage I went from under 14 tennis Europe to uh the ITF juniors from the ITF juniors to futures challengers on the tour I'd always go into the next level dip my toes in not break through immediately sort of get a feel for it and then probably 6 months down the line then I'd get results and really get a momentum to kick through that and they say on tennis you never want to be at a particular level for more than 18 months so in the futures if you you don't want to stuck there for 18 months, otherwise you're stuck there a long time. You really want to punch through those levels to get onto the tour. And that that's the way I did it. But I had a inner belief that I had the game or personality or um drive and stubbornness to to really get get through and get to the top.

13:40 >> Do you remember your first paycheck or prize money? >> I I don't really. Um I mean I had some opportunities with the LTA through wild card so it probably would have been that certainly the Wimbledon wild card was when you look at the the numbers and it's obviously even better now than >> what was the Wimbledon wild card for you when you did it. >> My first one was in qualies so it probably would have been something around 10,000. Uh first round loser obviously goes up each time to probably like 18 or 20. And then first round prize money these days you're looking at what 70 80 >> by now.

14:18 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> For losing >> for losing first round 70 80 something like that. I know the US open Australian ops it's $100,000. >> I mean Australian dollars is quite different but US dollar 100,000 something like that is I'm not 100%. I remember a few I say a few years ago times suddenly started moving really quickly. So it's probably about 10 years ago. I remember when it was about 30 grand and I and that was like wo okay 30 grand to make it and there was a lot of discussion around uh a couple of years where that money had jumped.

14:47 >> Yeah. >> Uh I think maybe there was like 10 withdrawals in the first round where players who weren't fit were coming and playing a minimum because that was such important money to them to make even just from retiring in that in that first match. >> I think that >> come out with crutches. >> Yeah. I mean genuinely. >> Exactly. That's what was happening. That's like a deeper issue in the the ecosystem in terms of being in the grand slams because how different they are to the torren financially it's huge and it pays for your year. So if you have the ranking where you know as a minimum I'm getting first round of these slams I know I've got a guaranteed say 250 grand coming in which is huge. So I have to turn up at those events. I can't afford not to. Uh they've done it differently now where they obviously realize what players were doing. Even players that there was a loophole in the system where if you get injured you get protected ranking and uh someone was exploiting it a lot where you turn up go on court pull out and because you pulled out it wasn't counted as a one of your allocated um protected rankings. So you kept you kept your allocation protector rankings but you took the check and he just he found the loophole and eventually changed it.

16:03 So now if you're on site you can take 50% of your prize money. So the incentive is a lucky loser >> can get in the draw. So someone can play he they pick up 50% but you also take you by doing nothing you take home 50%. So I think it's a lot better. >> You paid $100,000 say for a US Open first round loser. Now everyone's like, "Oh my god, 100 grand to lose the first round."

16:30 >> Sounds nice, >> but you have coaches, you have travel, you have hotels. >> What does that tax >> straight away? Withholding tax 30%. >> Okay. And so you're now down to 70. >> Yeah. >> What happens then? How much of it goes back to you, a player? >> Yeah, you're right. So the US Open is uh we they call it US Open series. So you're going from the grass courts to first week is like Atlanta and Washington then onto the Canadian masters which is like Montreal, Toronto, Cincinnati, your So it could be like a six week trip. So obviously you're paying flights first of all to get over there um internally with your team.

17:11 Let's say if you're on the tour, you probably have a team of a coach and a physio. Let's say >> bare minimum. >> Yeah. can't I mean people do it in different ways but something like that if you've got the the cash you do it you're paying them a weekly expenses hotels are on you for them as well um generally coaches are wanting business class flights >> um if you're of a certain level um and you got all all that stuff you're playing them you get to New York so yeah you've got all that stuff it adds up obviously the better you do in the end you're going to make profit but it isn't literally like that's what you get.

17:48 That's what I'm taking home. There's all that stuff in between and you kind of don't see that. Of course, if you're successful on court, you are going to be successful in your bank account at the end of the day. But yeah, you're you're right. >> Sure. For all your coaches and your physios, but you so you're paying for their flights and accommodation. >> Yeah. >> Do you have are they on a salary or are they is it a balance between a salary and a performance related bonus based on your winnings?

18:10 >> Yeah, you can do it different ways as in it's whatever you individually agree that person. A lot of my career, I had a salary and as I went on when I was on the tour, the the coach would generally ask for uh percentage of prize money, which was probably between zero and 1 and 5%. You can go back at them and and debate on that or try and uh arrange a deal. Um sometimes physios and trainers ask for prize money percentage but I was not as much there. There was keen there but at the end of the year as well in the contract was like a uh if you're 40 50 30 to 40 they'd get another bonus as well. So they always protect themselves which you totally get. But yeah, some people had prize money, particular agents as well with players I think uh do that as well uh depending on what you do. So >> So let's if if we're contextualizing it, you earned just over $6 million in prize money throughout your career. So that's prize money on court.

19:16 >> Yeah, >> that's a 12 to 13 year career. >> So again, very conscious that these are numbers and putting into context of life, but you're like, "Wow, okay, that's incredible." But then if we're immediately just on the total package, bringing some of those down, plus then a consistency challenge, which I guess you have, that's not taking into account years where maybe you aren't earning as much. When you you made an Australian Open semi-final, right? So I'd imagine in that one semi-final, if you lose, you're making as much in that one tournament as you would do in other years.

19:45 >> Yeah. Does accounting for all of this does planning does does creating like a consistent plan rather than living paycheck to paycheck even for someone like you who got to number 14 in the world you know is this a serious problem? Yeah, it's so that's obviously throughout my career and for the first few years the futures you're not earning money unless you're I would say 150 to 200 you're not making profit. you're kind of breaking even at best. Below that, you're losing money. That that's that's what I see. So, and also when I was injured uh with my surgeries from the ages of let's say 25 26 to when I stopped, I didn't make money cuz I wasn't playing the top events. And during the period of 20 months when I wasn't playing, I was paying coaches, uh salaries, physios, fitness trainers. So there's a shorter period where I earn a bulk of my money and of course in that time you can afford uh to invest in yourself um pay people a bit more have a uh a traveling say strength and conditioning player uh trainer rather than at home. So there's all those little things, but I I was lucky. My dad's a chart accountant, so he looked after my all my expenses, did all my tax returns, which obviously playing in all the playing all these different countries is pretty important. So he was on that, but he was always managing that and I I trusted and left all that to him and I like to just focus on the tennis rather than getting but he would always say uh this is what's happening. I let I left him to sort of uh negotiate with coaches as well. I didn't personally want to do that. Um but I was aware of the end what what happened in the end, you know.

21:34 >> What what year did you make the most and how much did you make in a year? It would have been 2018 for sure because I reached the Stone Files Australia and I think that was about ballpark 600,000 Australian dollars for that one tournament and then throughout the year I won my first tour event won some Masters matches, master Series matches, uh some other Grand Slam matches as well. The crazy thing is one one year 2015 that we used to have um a competition called tiebreak 10s >> and uh I was still I was 20. We just played Davis Cup. It was the off seasonason and we played at Royal Albert Hall. It was the uh this tie break 10.

22:15 It's basically a tie rate to 10 and um it was on the sort of pro size me, Andy and David Ferrer and on the legends was Menro, Tim Edmmond and Meise and I ended up winning it and the prize to win it was 250 grand for you know four tie breaks which is crazy. And then I said to my dad quite a few times I was like you know tennis is or I said life in general you can have those nights and that financial sort of uh high and then I said for how many ever months of nothing you know net nothing. So that's that's the difference in terms of being in the right place right time with your ranking your career. Uh and tennis is pretty tough in that way you It's also so funny like the luck though that comes from like tie break tennis at the Royal Albert Hall versus the slugging it out on tour and delayed lounges >> and this is when I played those guys obviously like the the legend they're retired you know like they're not playing full time and we had just won the Davis Cup and Andy had a long year he played a lot so he had gone on holiday or rested and Fer just come back from his honeymoon and uh when we came from Dave I I carried on training cuz I was like it's a lot of money here. I need to give myself a chance.

23:36 >> Yeah. >> So they sort of turned up a bit more uh >> chilled >> chilled and the one the other thing that was um interesting is you you got a appearance fee. I think my appearance fee was 10 and the other guys would have been a lot more especially Andy wouldn't have done that for for something low and the 250 grand was the difference. So let's say someone got paid 150, 200. They only have to pay 50. So the owner obviously had to pay me 240 more and I was on the lowest for sure to be there.

24:12 So he had to fork out the most for the guy who's on the lowest appearance tree. >> So you winning was a disaster. >> Yeah. It was like the story was great in terms of the young British guy winning, but the financially was probably no good for him. >> Last year they did it. So those types of things increasingly have started coming into sport where >> players need more financial opportunity. We're lucky to be having this conversation now because as of recording only last week the pay around tennis players has been in the news when Sabalena brought um the conversation that's really been bubbling for quite a long time around the distribution of revenue into tennis. For those that don't know, uh the grand slams generally pay about 15 to 17% of total tournament revenues to the players. Yeah.

25:01 >> 60 to 80 million across the different events to all of those players. >> Now that um again seems like a lot but actually when distributed all the way across the field isn't a huge amount when baked into how much money they're actually turning over and a lot of other sports go far more towards the kind of 40 to 50% particularly if you're going into some of the American sports going into the players. Now, from what I've seen, the players aren't actually asking for massive recalibration. They're asking for about 22% of the revenues to go to the players.

25:31 And the top players are the ones that are carrying a lot of this fight. Yeah. >> Which again from people has led to critique going, "Oh, well, it's not like they need the money." But that's not really the point of what from my understanding they're doing. They're doing this because if you have Yanick S and Arena Sabalanka arguing the case for more money, it's far more impactful than having player number 150 in the world who can easily be dismissed.

25:54 >> For sure. >> My point being, we've talked about how money has impacted players and the importance of this. >> We also talk about, you know, the prestige and history of these events and the assumption that, oh, people will always want to play. >> Yeah. >> As someone that's been in this, how do you view this situation? >> Yeah. I mean, you said, right, how where do we begin? Um should they be so as a player? Yes. Like you want to get paid more. Um they are the product of of the sport. They're the ones that's going out there. So it's really like tennis is a very muddled system as in you have seven governing bodies essentially which is the four slams ATP WTA and ITF. And it's really hard to for them to work all together in their own way. The slams can do what they want. They're not obliged to follow ATP rules or tour rules or whatever that is. They can decide what they want to do and that's it. The ATP as well, the tournaments are owned by the actual tournament. The ATP don't own the license to the tournament. So Rome, Madrid, they own their license. they can also essentially do what they want to do and if they don't meet um standards they will get fined but there's there's nothing you can really say um in terms of an actual number I I don't know the answer like what what is the answer if it's 22 then in five or 10 years it's going to be 25 I don't know how how that will work the one thing I would say is the slams provide the most money to the sport for the players that is where they're getting the most benefit.

27:41 Is it up to the tours to to reach that standard as in they need to provide more first before attacking the slams in some way. Um and the other side of it like I mean so woman last year they actually had a net loss on their whole thing I think of 70 million um because they probably putting in money of in uh projects and building hopefully the golf course and all those kind of things but I don't know what the answer is. The other side of it is is like I've heard arguments uh in the tournament side where as Wimbledon as a brand you get to play if you win Wimbledon uh whoever's won it the benefits you get post that you won't get through playing a challenger. If you win a challenger 250 you don't get a million pound contracts with a clothing company or a jewelry company from that. So the opportunities you get from winning by playing Walden is also down the line. So >> and it's not even winning by playing on center court against a top the exposure you get is probably 50 to 100,000 Instagram followers.

28:52 >> The other debate is when you get the top guys asking my money. Is it for them or is it for the benefit of the sport further down? So is someone who earns maybe 10 grand uh no more like six or seven grand at a challenger for winning should they be earning 10 grand which for them is a big difference in in that way but is someone who wins 2 million is it 2.1 so where is it going as well is a big big thing that's what makes me think that maybe it's rose tinted glasses but again if it's Sabalanka or Jovoic or SA having these discussions and we're talking about another 150 grand of what maybe they would get like they can go and get that >> for a branded post somewhere or they could do it in another way. So to put this fight in there, I do believe that this is far more about the sustainable top tobottom ecosystem cuz what we've really heard so far, right, is to to become a tennis player, it costs a ton of money to do it. And then when you become a tennis player, you're not guaranteed a ton of money. In actual fact, most of the time for the majority of players that make it, you spent a ton of money to put yourself in a really difficult earning position where now I'm going, well, do is this a viable career?

30:00 The sport is going to suffer because gradually people just won't won't be picking up rackets in the same way that they would have done previously. >> Revenue doesn't suggest health of revenue. And so, like, you know, if you think about the modern media product that's required today, it requires a lot more investment. Your cogs go up as an institution. And so, frankly, they could be losing more money than ever because they've got to provide a better product to the different media providers. They you should actually do it as a percent of profit margin. That's what you should do because you could be having to invest. It's a worse financial decision for them like to deliver that product.

30:36 Do you see what I'm saying? >> Completely. The players to me are actually being quite reasonable in this discussion. It is not an unachievable conversation. It just feels like there's a there's a breakdown in whatever that communication line needs to look at because players don't seem to have a really collective powerful union. >> No, that that's the problem. And you're right, compared to other markets, what they're getting and they're comparing and that's the whole debate at the minute that uh like there's lawsuits with the PTPA, which I actually still don't know what it means, but it's essentially a voice for the players. Uh, and I know Australian Open um settled with them, but the other three slams are still in a legal process. I don't know what the outcome is that they're trying to get to, but yeah, the the players don't really have a voice in that way, but at the same time, the I'm pretty sure the tour is owned by some of the players, by some of the tournaments.

31:31 There's a split. I in general, I would like to see more money lowered down. I don't like how limited it is. As in how high you have to be to make a living on the tour. >> How high is that top 50? >> No, like as in profit somewhere in the hundreds. 150 200 maybe you could make money but not you're not making lots of money but to to have a sustainable career and I think that should be way way more as in top 300 should be able to make a living on your own with the prize money and all that stuff.

32:08 >> If you think about like prize money being as we said like kind of the publicly reported number of like 6 million. >> Yeah. >> The idea then is that you have like brand partnerships and commercials. The problem is with the the players that sell tennis is probably only a handful of players which is crazy and those are the the priority for the rest of the game and I think it's they're quite honest with that with the tournaments or governing bodies that that is the situation. Doubles doesn't do anything even though it probably should. In the UK we're very successful at doubles but it just doesn't do any. it doesn't sell as in doesn't make money. Um there's arguments internally about it. Uh I actually think they should probably just sell it and someone else come and say actually I want to do I want to make something of this but I don't think it's in the ATP's interest because they want to keep hold of the market and control it all.

33:06 >> If it was a doubles because again really nice idea you you cuz doubles is great to watch when you actually sit down and watch it. You know it's really fun. It's a great sport. Like it's completely different to singles. The talent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But if you separated a doubles tournament from a singles tournament, you've played doubles, right? >> Yeah. >> You were successful at junior. You won two grand junior grand slams in your doubles, right? So you take that out of the main tournament. You're probably not going to go and play those doubles tournaments if we're separating the product because it reduces your >> as singles players. No, they had no interest. And that's why in US Open they did the whole mixed doubles thing before tournament and only singles players could play it. So it's a doubles event but only singles they sell.

33:47 >> People want to go and watch them. >> And also do you think if you had a doubles event I don't think people would go like you go to see the doubles match at Wimbledon because KL's playing next against SA or against Novak. >> Cool. I'm here. I'm here. Great. But I'm not going to go. >> But you drap paired with Pigula. >> Exactly. And it's actually a really sad thing like situation in that because >> um you don't you don't want things to to drop down or to disappear you know in the game like you're losing but the reality is there's no money being made as in the ATPF have to fund it and put in the money >> Darwin like survival of the fittest it doesn't make money people don't want it I'm just calling it spade a spade let it drop >> yeah it's that's why there was a bit of a well I've had discussions with the players at the NBA and stuff as in get an independent person to take it on maybe even run it alongside the singles events but it's marketed and funded by an external or they go off and do their own thing like they go to other venues where maybe you could go to Asia and there's interest because over there they don't get much live sports say in China and you know you're just going to get lots of people or India I I don't know but yeah >> to your commercial Yeah, >> we've had um a number of Olympians on the show and the thing they continually talk about is maximizing the window that they're in like the shop for basically.

35:15 >> That is very very brief. They win a medal. They're the biggest news for a month and then afterwards it can kind of collapse around. You're [ __ ] that's really really tough. And we just you know your point really around the commercials I think was and we spoke about this a little bit before all the money accrews right to the top. The the right at the top is already earning the huge cash but it's also sport now is increasingly moments. You had a moment, right? You've been around for a while. I when you got to the semi-finals in Australia. It wasn't as if no one had ever heard of you before, but we hadn't seen you that far in a tournament. And also, this country, we get so excited.

35:47 What did that do for you? Did it suddenly create a wave of interest beyond the court? Did it feel like a flash? Did it sustain once you you had gone through? Like what what was that like when you suddenly had that jump in achievement? Especially in this country, it's up or you're you're down and you feel it. Especially when I made the that tournament run, you have lots more interest. Um, also it benefited me in my career like financially sponsors. Um, >> did it after that?

36:17 >> Yeah, big time. I um >> What did you sign? >> I signed that year I signed with Rolex, Evian, Jaguar, British Airways, um a new Nike deal. So, pause. Pause. We got Rolex. Wait, dude. This really shitty brand. Now we're getting to my moola in the cooler. Okay. Rolex. >> Yeah, they're never going to pay me. Okay. So, I want to live vicarity 3. What does that look like?

36:48 >> Amazing. First of all, >> the best thing is obviously the exposure cuz Rolex is a very sort of premium like is premium tennis. uh they invest quite a bit in the tournaments and the slams. They own uh they have the rights to all the timekeeping the slams now. Um and I think they do a few like Monte Carlo and Shanghai. But for me it was the exposure it gives you. Um terms of financially it wasn't huge but you're getting the the time pieces.

37:18 >> How much is it? So you get you get the credit and the credit is at like I think it's about 50,000 in my first contract and then I renewed and it it was a bit more not 50 but you you get more budget to purchase more um more uh watches. So yeah in the end I >> How many you got? >> I got in the end I got six and uh and you can purchase one as well. The Rolex was not not designed of course our Roger Fedra are on another different kind of contract for sure but and SA >> um but that it more being associated with such a premium brand >> is is amazing what you do the the hospitality as well >> this is where Charlie say god Harry so Evian >> yeah give me credit I hydrate the [ __ ] out of you there >> they do Yeah, I'm still getting through my stuff.

38:20 >> I've been peeing for 4 years. >> Exactly. >> Seriously, what what >> So that was um yeah, that that was financial. I don't off top ever don't know the financial, but again uh they do very sort of niche campaigns as in not lots of athletes are with them. Uh like now they have Emma Alcarez I think Francis Tafo uh at the time like Stan Vinka was there Maria Sharova as well. So that was very cool and you obviously get unlimited sort of stock of water and every tournament you play when you walk into your hotel I just had boxes of Evian in the corner so they sent it all around the world and you come into your hotel and you also had to use it at the tournaments. So even if the tournament was um on spring or um what whatever Vetel you had to use Evian Court which was a bit of a a battle. I was going to say who how does that work because normally tournaments you >> they don't want you to to use it but you just have to really fight with it and the the give and take you just have to take off the the plastic wrapper which obviously defeats the point but yeah sometimes you get away with it sometimes they're very insistent um US Open and Warden is Fen so you were fine appearance days I didn't mind doing but was always scheduling them in was a night was you you got to do it back home. When you're at the tournaments, they want time. But that's all part of being a >> professional athlete. And when you're younger, you don't think about that, but as you get older, you realize that's what it entails. But, um, my dad was very black and white those things and be like, >> well, if you don't want to do it, don't don't sign a contract. Like, you know, you sign a contract, you got to do it.

40:09 Fulfill your agreement. Um, relationships. And yeah, Jaguar was the same. you have to do days, but I got a nice car to do it, so didn't complain. British Airways gave me uh quite a lot of nice business class flights, which also um was for my team. So, going back to expenses, they were getting business class flights. I was uh there was no money involved, but of course, I'm not spending the money. So actually I'm >> So actually that's a that's a really good deal for you if you're being able as in I'm not um you know something that maybe doesn't b like maybe a yogurt brand like it's not like it's but the flights were really beneficial >> you load of o but this you know coming back to that point so that really Australia 2018 was the moment where this type of deal suddenly became >> a reality.

41:04 Yeah, exactly. And that Yeah, my agents had big big thing to do with that and they got then the British Aries thing happened straight away. Literally, I finished the tournament and he said, "You'll find back British Aries cuz when you land, uh, they're going to do a thing with you." So, he in the pipeline while the tournament's going, he was already arranging that relationship, which I didn't know, but he was doing that. The idea was trying to align myself with very sort of British brands and I guess yeah, Evian is not quite that, but they were very premium in the tennis world and obviously Jaguar and um British Airways and Rolex is such a you don't tone that down. So yeah, that was the the philosophy.

41:44 >> Can we have a bit of fun with that? Like proper tennis site. You start every grand slam with hope. >> You then start winning a few games. You're then getting to stages you've never been in before. Next thing you know, you're in semi-finals. I mean, you beat Dimmitro right on the way and he was number three in the world at that time. So, you're >> you're really pushing through. Like what what was that whole kind of couple of weeks like?

42:03 >> Yeah, it's incredible cuz you're just gaining momentum. I had a really good off season. I remember that year in end of 2017. Um, we did a shedload of physical work. I just got a new coach. Uh, I did my offseason in Bahamas. So basically every day, you know, blazing sun getting ready for the Austral Australia heat and I had two juniors with me and they we just put them in a corner and move me side to side doing two-on-one drills for 3 4 minutes at a time interval stuff running the track.

42:38 So I was in really good shape. Uh and I turned up to Brisbane. I won two matches of each Pavlov and um Chung who made actually made semi-finals that year as well and then I rolled my ankle against Dimmitrov and um it bruised was blue. I was I meant to play Oakland but I pulled out because of that and actually in hindsight was a blessing cuz I actually got some rest in that week before Stone Open. Luckily it wasn't that bad. I the swelling went down. I could play and I played Kevin Anderson first round who had made the the final of US Open the year before. So it was a really tough match, tough draw, but in that moment I'd never gone deep in a tournament in a slam like that before. So my mind wasn't thinking about it. It was just thinking I've got this tough match against Anderson big server and um I won in five sets. It was big probably biggest win marker, one of the biggest. And that was like a real turning point of like I'm here like I'm in this tournament. One of my second round straight sets felt great against Istman.

43:41 And throughout the tournament uh third round against Bass Philly, five sets I can't remember but we had a a 20inut game in the fourth set. Blazing sunshine like it was reached 40 degrees that day and um I started cramping and I was like this is no good. I'm in the fourth set. I'm two sets to one down. Like I need to win the next two. I w I get through that game and luckily for me, he tanks the rest of that set because I he probably starts feeling it as well. So, I'm just going to leave this set and we're going to go for a fifth set shootout. And uh I was cramping throughout and I just said to myself, I'm going to focus on my service games. It's not in tennis matches often you tell yourself to back off. It's always like every point you give it your all like it's your last point of your your career type vibe. But I knew I could I couldn't sustain that.

44:35 So I held my service games. I said if I get to a 30 all on his uh service games somehow I'll then invest I'll put in an effort and invest physically and go to the well and really tough it out. And it was 54 to me and it got to that point and we were playing the point and during the point I could feel myself going. I was like I've just got to try and win these points somehow. Luckily uh I won the match and um in a weird way you actually get fitter during the tournament. You don't I didn't find I got tired. I got fitter cuz my body just kept adapting the whole way through. uh good win fourth round against Sepe and then one of my biggest wins against Dimmitrov in the fourth round uh quarterfinals four sets and I think by playing him the week before really benefited me because I had a game plan going in. I knew exactly the way he was going to play the flow of the match, how the rallies were going to be dictated, how many shots generally um he loved to slice his back end. the common play was his slice, backhand, crosscourt, and me running around hitting my fore end and just trading like that. Uh, and I knew the the serves he liked to hit as well.

45:51 So, all those little things helped me massively. And yeah, unfortunately during the tournament, I had tore my hip flexor. So, as the matches was going on, even though I was feeling physically fit, it was getting more and more sore. And in the semis, it it was just pretty sore. I did lots of painkillers and everything and uh but lost to Chilich, but that was like I announce myself type vibe, you know, that was a big big tournament for me. And um I actually think players would prefer to win slams than they would to be world number one.

46:24 Um I think that's like that's the pinnacle of tennis is to win a grand slam. That's where it's like you find yourself out, you pass the true test, best of five sets, conditions, best players. >> When you prove that you can do it once, >> do you expect to do it multiple more times and are you disappointed that you don't go and achieve that consistently? Then >> it's hard not to think that. That's what I found is you how do you go reach the semi-finals and then the next tournament or next slam have the ambitions of it's okay if I win a round or something you know like even though cuz you're starting again months down the line there's no guarantee players are coming at you again you've got to earn that right to get through the tournament and yeah I the best I reached off that was the third round and I the reality was I didn't actually play lots of grand slam matches off that because of my injury in 2020. Obviously, that was it. So, I reached the third round that year in the French and uh Wimbledon. So, but I lost to Fogini uh French lost to Jovovic in Woman. So, >> um >> when you get Jovovic, how do you feel?

47:36 Because there's a one side of you which is I'm Santa Court, all eyes on me, baby. This is great for exposure. >> And then the other is I'm going to have my ass handed to me. >> Yeah. is is a good question. So I played Jovovic I think eight times, seven or eight times. One of the players I played most in my career. So I've got one win against him and seven losses or something. And people ask me what was it like playing Roger and Rafa or Novak.

48:02 But or even Andy, I practiced with Andy lots. I played him four times, but Novak I played the most. So I always said Novak was the toughest I played cuz I felt him on the court more than the other players. And when you play Novak, the first thing you play all these guys is they have an aura and you feel it and it even starts in the change room walking to the court. They like to control the environment and you know that when I first played in Miami, I was very young, still probably 19 or so. He came out the change rooms last 5 minutes after I'd come out waiting to go on court cuz like I'm going to run the show. When you go on court, go from your chair to the umpire and start the net. He's not there waiting for you. I'm waiting for him.

48:50 And even on the court, you're playing the match. He's dictating the crowd. You feel he has control of the situation. And that's what I learned playing as top guys that you don't get practicing or playing challenger levels at that real high high level. But in terms of actually playing Novak, it's he's an unbelievable mover. anticipation and you know that he also knows he's good at that. So he doesn't smack the cover off the ball, doesn't go for shots that are risk risky. So and I knew um playing him if I wanted to hit a winner I I had to take risk. I had to go back and down the line really hard close to the line or if I had a forehand that I wanted to change the direction on I had to take risk. So you really felt that uh his endurance from 0.1 to hour five is like that his level it doesn't go up. I I played him and I won the first set I think four times in those matches. So it's a I've started well got upper but he then always beat me in uh best of three or four sets won the next three because it doesn't matter I've lost that set. He's like, "Right, set two. Here we go again. I'm not dropping. My level is going to stay the same, if not go up."

50:12 So, he doesn't give you anything. Really hard to hit aces against him. So, you're not getting any cheat points on on returns. And when you're rallying with him, he just doesn't miss. And you see the way he slides in corners. If you come into the net these days, you feel like the guys have to be openf faced on the stretch. Even if they're on the run with two hands or forehand and they can hit over the ball like top spin and they slide in, you feel like there's a chance he's going to pass you and you can feel that on TV and you feel that on court.

50:46 They've got a shot. If they can get the racket, you can be a bit of a sitting duck. So, you always hesitant to come into the net and at the back of the court. That's where he wanted you. Just trading, rallying. I can pick you off when I want and I can do this over 5 hours. >> How does that Sorry. >> No, but you beat him >> once, right? So, I mean that >> to have the win against probably the greatest forget all the others.

51:10 >> That's the one we focus on. >> So, yeah, I beat him. >> So, yeah. What did you do in that game that made you beat him where you didn't in others? What was different? It's not like I played bad. I played while in Wimbledon because we played 2018 Madrid and then a few months later playing Won. Um sometime it's just on the day like we're playing so many matches a year. Um you're starting from zero every time you've got a new a new opportunity to beat him. And it was just I knew I was playing Novak.

51:46 The only way I'm going to beat him if if is if I focus on the process as in it's very cheesy but that is the reality. You're focusing on things within yourself. What I'm looking to do. >> Is it nice you don't ever have pressure? Like you got nothing to lose going to Novak. No one. >> Yeah. But it's that but also you don't want to lose a ninth time or a 10th time. You know what I mean? It's I I don't enjoy that, you know? Like it's not fun. So you you do want to win. It's like come on, what what am I doing all this for?

52:18 Not to participate or just make up the numbers, you know? You actually want to make something yourself. Um, but yeah, on that day I knew I had to serve well. I hit my forehand great. It was getting through the court and I was hitting my backand very solid, but I always played well in Madrid because altitude and I like those conditions. So, the ball pings off the court. So, you get rewarded for your shots. And I played Davis Cup in Madrid uh as well on indoor hard when they had Davis Cup there and uh on the clay in the in the spring. I just it was a environment that I liked.

52:50 So I think that helped a lot playing him >> cuz you you played Nadal. I had a look at the things. So you played Nadal once, Feder once and Jovovic eight times. You played Nadal and Monte Carlo on Clay and you lost the first set six love. Then I saw you won the second set. I was like how do you So you're playing the greatest clay court player of all time. He does you six love in the first set.

53:10 >> Yeah. >> But then you come back and win the second set. >> So in that moment I I remember sitting there thinking this is embarrassing and I was angry and I had to get angry. Not like I was shouting anything but literally as you said I'm six love down. Um this guy's won the tournament 10 times. He's like the god here. It's his court. I know everyone here is basically coming to watch him. They want to see Raf and Nadal over me. So I'm like, "Everyone's having a great day. Rafa's having a great day. You're getting smoked. You look like a loser." And I was saying, "This is this is just embarrassing." So actually forced myself to go out and literally just go, "Right, come on." And I just started smacking it. I was like, "I'm going to give it to you now." That was my mentality. Um, and straight away when players are relaxed, they do a lot more things with the ball.

54:08 They take more risks. They also tend to make the balls more because they're not they know if I miss it doesn't matter. I'm so far ahead in the score line. And straight as soon as I went towards uh hit Rafer in the game, his shots became a bit higher, a bit more spinnier. They weren't he wasn't flattening them out as much through the court. So, I had more time. Um, it's still a d like it's still tough, but I had more time. the ball. I was dictating more points, getting into more rallies and just like you feel the match slowly turning. And that's the beauty of the tennis system as well as you can't defend a lead as in football or uh team sports in any way because after every point you reset it. After every game, you start at 0 0. After every set, you start at 0 0. So the the score line allows for people to come from behind. And if you're in front, yeah, great. But you can't you can't relax. You have to keep attacking a lead. So that's the good thing. You get a mental reset. I started to gain some momentum and turned it and yeah, I was starting to feel better about myself.

55:14 And after the second set, I was like, okay, I'm in a match here. And then it's like a different thing as not only you get yourself into the match, but then you start thinking about I can actually start to win it now. And then that's maybe a different mentality of nerves start to come in. You maybe overthink it. you get a bit tentative on on points that you should uh that you should go for it. >> Natural god-given talent rank one through three Rafa Federa or Jock the whole natural side of it is Roger just the way the way he is and stuff. I uh I feel like Novak is a bit more drilled in that way, but he is obviously super talented. And I when I was watching Roger and Rafa play and Novak started to turn it, I actually from the outside liked to see that because I could resonate with Novak a bit more the way he played. I fel felt with Roger and Rafa that they just played such like like godlike >> tennis that was like how how do you replicate that? Do you know what I mean?

56:25 It's so like >> Zeus gave you the racket. >> That's what it felt like. Obviously polar opposites, but they just had this thing. And I felt Novak was a bit more like rally from the baseline, pick them off, movement, just a bit more like you wouldn't sort of look at you would look at Rafa and Roger and be like, "Wow, what the tennis they're playing is." Is it something that's attainable? The absolute like dedication drill it like that is something that I could do.

56:54 >> Yeah, absolutely. you but you have to believe that otherwise you got no chance to get there. You have to work out something >> that work that benefits you, works for you and find your own way. You can take things from other players. Uh but for me it was taking but keeping to myself like I knew on court I had to be physical to benefit me. Off the court I'm quite a introverted quiet guy but on the court my game was not introverted. It had to be physical and show my presence like quite big guys. I had to show that. So that was something I had to really focus on is switching that button when I went on court going from someone who kept to myself and being like I am here because I couldn't play my best tennis um being inside myself and um everyone has that in their own way. Um, like even No, like I say, Novak I felt I could resemble more, but there's aspects from playing tennis that I know he does at like a unbelievable level that some most majority players just can't replicate.

57:58 And I think that's the biggest thing with tennis, the best tennis players in the world is they have accountability and ownership of their game that they know they can repeat when they need to and also consistently day in day out owning their craft. So, a lot of players you'd see have uh the ability or talent or they have the quality to play really good tennis in matches, but the best guys can turn up in sort of any situation, any week, any tournament and produce it. I mean, like what S is doing now is is incredible really. It's like almost a given. That's where we've got to now is like before matches go on court, you walk in, it's like he's going to win. Is that not bad for the sport?

58:43 >> Yeah, I think that's a different conversation for the sport. But as an athlete, you work your whole life to get to that position. Finally, you've earned the right where you build up such an aura presence. You one, you have the ability to beat anyone. But even without that, people kind of go, >> "What am the Vstappen like conversation?" But you lived in that era where you had firstly you had a great rivalry. >> Yeah. >> Right. That began with Feder and Nadal.

59:14 You then you saw like the evolution. I mean I remember Jovovic when he was retiring in Wimbledon semi-finals with blisters throwing a tantrum and you would never have said that that guy would as you've said build the mentality and the consistency to go and do what he's done but he did. That created a new level of competition. You then had Paul Murray, you know, alongside say >> Murray at Queens when he was so young and he got injured that that time and it was like the real like boy.

59:40 >> He was skinny. He was you know five sets were what everyone would throw at him. You can't win in five sets. Therefore the slams always going to be your problem. You got these incredible people there. You know he wins three slams and is in however many more finals. Yeah. >> But you he's still competitive at that level. Then you also had like Vinka. You had so you had just an amazing group of players. >> Yeah. Absolutely.

60:00 >> Now, >> yeah, >> S and Alcarez have competed in I think it's something like the last six Grand Slam Finals, something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Seriously. >> Yeah. >> This dominance type issue. It's great because you've got a rivalry now, but in tennis, you still need to have a bit of mystery. >> Yeah, you do. I mean, obviously, it was impressive. Jovovic uh beat in Australia this year. So the final was our crow but that was the first time in a very long time was different and I agree now from the outside you you need depth you need variety for it because >> I I find it really hard to say like you need other people winning or these guys are winning too much. I don't think you can win too much. Like that's the name of the game and that's why you did all those things and to sacrifice get to that stage is to win. If you win and you dominate, you take it both hands.

60:57 >> Should we like give them like a paddle bat for the first set? >> Exactly. >> Go on. There you go. Just win the next three. >> But yeah, there needs to be more variety. But >> the only way to have it is up to the other players to do something. Going back to the very beginning of this conversation, when you go back to the training ranks and the the teenage years, >> how early is true greatness detectable?

61:23 In other words, when you're around them, were there lots of people like in football, it's very uncorrelated who's great early versus who truly makes it. Is it correlated or not correlated? >> Both, I'd say. You get players who from a young age were just good and you kind of they went on to be good. I'd say that's less more as in you the players that are good were not always good when they're younger just because you develop at different rates physically as well.

61:53 You're different. You grow um and fill out physically. Like myself, I only started when I was 10. So you there was never really a time you could probably look at me and go like he could go and do this or go and do that. I was always pretty good but never like amazing. So, it's it's really hard and I there's loads and loads of situations where people have been good when they're young, get some good nice contracts, maybe win a junior grand slam, whatever it is, and just they fall off. Um, getting to the the senior and pro level.

62:27 It's just that transition is really hard. It might be a mental thing, too much pressure or pressure you put on yourself. uh physically, maybe you just you're good when you're young, but you don't grow older, so you get found out. Or maybe you're just um mentally. There's lots of different factors, you know. >> You said there mentally. I I think often about like choking. >> Yeah. >> Um in whatever one's doing, did you ever choke and choke, so to speak, for anyone who doesn't know, is kind of everything's going well and then something messes with the psyche and you fall off a cliff?

63:01 >> Uh yeah. I mean the in matches I've lost matches I should have won or had match points and lost. I remember you know Jack Sock when he had his breakthrough in Paris Bersie. He won the Masters there one year. So to win obviously at Masters is a big big one in in our sport. I was five up against him in the third set in the first or second round. >> Five love up. >> Yeah. And he went on to win the match.

63:26 Um that was the last match of the year as well. So I had the rest of the offseason to think about that and be like five love up. And so yeah, I've cho I've gone on and lost five first rounds in a row. It it happens in tennis and everyone will go through a dip and you obviously you got to work through it and come out the other side. >> What's your biggest advice on working through a confidence trough and a dip?

63:49 >> The thing that you can't take away is like a non-negotiable effort as in you have to keep turning up. You can't you will feel sorry for yourself but you can't then go it's someone else someone else to bra blame um why is this not happen you know all those things that probably go through your mind you have to keep turning up and putting in the effort because there's a saying in tennis you never know when it's your week so you don't have the control of maybe winning that week as in you have the control of winning the matches or winning the point blah blah but you can't say I'm going to win every week but what you have is the ability to give yourself the opportunity to win every week. If you're not giving yourself the opportunity, then you can't. What do you expect? So, my thing was like, if I'm not going well on court, I'm getting on the practice court as much as I can.

64:40 Mentally, I'm thinking about it, maybe analyzing too much, but at least I feel like I'm doing something about it than not turning up, giving myself the opportunity. Because the amount of times you see someone go on like six first rounds and then they win one match and two matches at tournament and they make final >> that next week. Suddenly in a week you're a different person, different player and your outlook on things is so different. So throughout the year >> with the opportunities of tournaments you have to keep turning up and being being present.

65:10 >> Do you wish you had been more social media active in your playing days? >> Yeah. Well, so when I played, I wasn't into it at all. Uh but yeah, then looking back, I was like, "Yeah, I should have done that more." >> Um the benefits you get, it it's really hard to do. At one point, someone did it for me. Um so yeah, now probably going back to the question earlier about giving yourself post tennis an opportunity, I probably wish I would have done more, but I was very much just tennis is all that matters. is I don't care about anything else.

65:48 >> When you're on tour, you're in the cantens. Are you talking to the other players about like, hey, like, saw you did an investment there. Saw you working with X. That looks cool. Do you talk about business activities or not? >> Not really. No, it's all Yeah. You're just mostly talking tennis. And often the guys probably high up the rankings are doing that privately, doing private investment stuff or business opportunities. But he never really talked about it with it was kind of just not really a thing. It was just Do you see that football?

66:23 >> Which you know like >> which opponent did you like the most and which did you like the least? um the least uh probably Novak, but >> the the one guy I lost in a se well in terms of game stuff there's a few guys I didn't personally sort of see eye to eye with the guys I did like playing was silich actually >> ah >> I found him very awkward and especially returning his serve um I don't know if you've seen or do watch him he's very >> I watch him a lot at queens very twitchy >> so he bounces the ball he's moving his foot sometimes bounce it catching it waiting a second bouncing again. And when you're standing there, you get out your return rhythm. Um, and he was just an awkward player to play against. His shots are very low and skiddy. Um, the guys I like to play against were generally smaller guys. We call him dirt ballers, so they played on a style.

67:19 >> No, no, he he he could play. But guys who would grind like put lots of balls into court, didn't have major weapons. I like them because I felt like the ball would then be on my racket to dictate the outcome. So if someone wasn't coming at me and I had the ability to go at them first and put them side to side, finish points, I had almost the say on my racket, I like that the most.

67:44 >> A Ferrer type player. >> Exactly. Ferrer's >> never really had any big >> player, but that type of of player where I mean Yeah. Ferez amazing player but someone probably a bit lower but that style a bit smaller didn't have massive serve massive ground strokes competed hard but I've always felt like in the end I would have him >> love that answer who's your least favorite chil who's your most type >> brilliant yeah I mean it's qu weird as you said that because chil is so big so keep everything being quite kind of low and skinny >> yeah that's I And big chilich came from that era that you were saying the top four Delpo Davidenko Nalandian Vinka Berdic and I always felt like Chilich was a little bit underrated because he had such good guys but he's like he's a proper player like that's just like an eye test thing when you see a play it's like >> he he's good and uh I mean he's reached he's won US Open so he's won a grand slam and he's reached the final of three Grand slams like that is really hard to do.

68:54 >> Quite a few tournaments as well alongside it. Right. So >> yeah, absolutely. >> He was he was playing Albandium, wasn't he? When Albandian booted the uh the board at Que. >> Oh my god. Which grand slam was the most important for you? >> So it's always one. I didn't enjoy playing there as much as the others cuz I just Yeah. felt like, you know, you more pressure and um more eyes on you. Um, you just I don't I didn't feel as relaxed there as I wanted to.

69:23 >> Outside of the slams, sorry. Which was the most important tournament to you? >> Outside of the slams, >> Rome, Madrid, India. Well, >> I mean, all those masters are kind of the same because they just have the same opportunity like points and if you do well in those weeks, you get big benefits in the rankings. The ones I enjoyed the playing most was Indian Wales, Monte Carlo, and Rome just because they're great places. >> Which was the best player experience?

69:56 >> Australia. >> Everyone says that. Yeah, >> Australia. They just look after players. Um, it's almost like if you ask for something, no is not is not an answer. They will try to work out something for you. Other tournaments, no is the answer straight away. And they just it's great. like they look after you really well. Melbourne's a great city. Fans are good. The tennis is very near everything. The on-site facilities, they're always upgrading. Every year they've done something different. They invest in it.

70:26 People just love going their start of the year. >> Can we talk about um that kind of the end of your career and where you're moving now? We have a lot of athletes that tune into this and something we get asked a huge amount about is how to handle the transition >> because there's so much fear and uncertainty often around what's next when you've spent your whole >> adult and sometimes late childhood life doing something you won't be doing anymore >> and you know you're only 30 31 is that right so you know you you've retired very young and you've had a very difficult end of that career with injury.

70:56 >> Yeah. >> What does the transition what does it look like for you? What is the process of going through that really difficult time at the end where you're having to come to terms with no longer being able to play while also then thinking about what you want to do next? >> I find it hard initially because it wasn't a retirement where I knew I was going to retire in December at the end of the year and could start to plan it was sort of came along and I made a decision reasonably quickly. Um and then I was kind of like what now? Um, and for a month or two I was still getting over sort of the emotion of it and being like, what what's going on? I'm almost anger and confused at situation of being like, I spent all this time and effort for 20 years to do something that almost feels like failure that you then give up in sort of one day or one night you make a decision. And I' I've struggled to get my head around that. And it's also the first time in my life that I've been in that situation. And at 10 years old, I've only done one thing. Um, and now when I leave it, it's like, well, that's not meant to happen. Like, I I don't know what it's like to actually go into something else now. Almost start again.

72:12 Um, I was worried a little bit about the buzz of it all as in where where am I going to get that drive, that competitive like wake up with a purpose. I in my head I said tennis is I'm not going to do anything that I can't replicate with a tennis. And then over time chatting to people I tried to reach out to as many people as I could just to get some advice. Um trial and error at a few things of going to a few events and then um like earlier I was like I want to stay in sport. That's where I get my sort of what I use as buzz from and and interest and uh determination like it's what I I'm intrigued about. I like to read about it, watch about it. So that just sort of fell into place came very naturally. But um yeah, it was it was a weird sort of thing the whole the whole retirement like I suppose with a lot of things you want to understand why like why something happened almost feel like in control of it and for a period of time I I even I've made a decision I I was still like like what's the meaning to it all like why do you invest all this time and effort to then just suddenly give it up like there's that doesn't make sense to me. Um, but I suppose I was still in like an emotional place in that way, you know.

73:34 >> What would you advise or tell an athlete who's about to retire about the moment they wake up on the first day post retirement? Well, yeah. Good. I don't even know what to really say. like I cuz I could give some sort of lots of rational answers like take your time and don't panic but I honestly I don't I don't think it's a bad thing to feel like that as well like feel sorry for yourself or feel the hurt. I I don't know. I think you've got to go through it to get get out the side so you can accept the decision and not put it off and come to terms with it.

74:16 But um my my biggest thing was trying to keep busy. Maybe that's that's the way. Keep busy. Trying to do stuff. Keep routines. For me, I just tried to keep going to the gym a bit. Try and find different different hobbies. Maybe it's not something you want to do all the way in your career or your life, but just find something that keep keeps you fixated on something, keeps your mind busy. because I found with injury and retirement that sitting at home overthinking is the worst thing ever.

74:48 >> Do you think there is an opportunity for players to do more outside of the game while they're playing? We had Pedek and former Chelsea goalkeeper and he was breaking down the amount of time in a day >> where he could focus on projects that weren't football. And actually he was saying this whole conversation around us not having time is is not true. It's just how you use that spare time. >> Yeah. Tennis is a very different game to football in the requirements on the professionals. Do you have the same time if you were looking back at where you were spending that spare time during tournaments where you could have planned you could have done things alongside the game that is now positioned you in a place where you had a bit more security or players have a bit more security and confidence towards the end of their careers? when I yeah when I was playing I had no interest in anything else and even if I spoke to someone now and said that to them I'd totally get if they had no interest in something else cuz when I saw someone and they were playing full-time but they went I've started a coffee shop thing I'd be like where is his head at? He's not fully focused on that. That was my mentality. But now that now I'm the other side of like, yeah, I totally get it because it's actually probably healthy and good for you that you have other interests, ambitions.

76:02 When you're done in your career, you have something to fall fall back on. Um, so yeah, that that was one of the things why I did the I've started doing the MBA is it gives me some purpose, some clarity, some structure, but at the same time what I'm looking to do in the next stage of my career. it was kind of the perfect thing to to get clued up on, gain some more experience, some more knowledge, a real framework of the the sports industry. Um, so I was I was really keen to do that. When I initially retired, someone asked me, "What do you think about the MA?" And I couldn't have said no quicker. Um, and then I slowly probably matured over a couple of months and went, "Actually, it's uh probably a good thing to do." realizing now I think it's an absolute privilege and lucky that if you can retire um in a way you want to with all things aligned you've left nothing out there I think you've hit the jackpot because it's very rarely that you get the perfect send off the perfect scenario where things align when you finish you know I've I'm going to take a break and then I'm going to go into that it's all planned out um so and was a little bit different. But it was all it's all part of life, you know. You you can't play tennis forever. It was that's what I'm telling myself. Can't play tennis forever. You're going to make that decision at some point. And the reality is I'm going to be doing something in this next phase of my life that will end up being longer than my tennis career, which is a weird thing to think about.

77:35 Yeah. >> Are you ready for a quick fire round? So, I give a short statement, >> you give me your immediate thoughts. I mean, I would say we give you a short sale, but generally Harry's just become more enthusiastic on these things. >> Yeah, I love these. Uh, okay. Pre-match routine. What was the like non-negotiables? >> I mean, so I I'm a really slow eater, so I had to try and eat as much as I could before the match, otherwise I just run out of energy. Grips, drinks, you're doing like the morning of, like everything's in order. Um, I had some weird quirks where I'd always use the same cubicle. So, shower and toilet cubicle in a tournament. Like the first one I went to when I arrived at event, I use that same one all the time. That was a sort of a weird quirk. And then uh yeah, other things like um I had to put on right sock before left and right shoe before left, but made no difference, but at the time I felt it did. So >> what what tournament had the best food?

78:28 >> So >> what tournament had the best food? Uh Madrid had one because they had Mitch star chef doing it and um Shanghai exactly the same um Michelin star chef. So it those they were great. I mean women's good, Australia's good, Queens is really good but those those were the best. >> What tournament worst conditions? >> The worst condition on the tour. They're always really good but you're playing futures and challenges. uh bad like you're not getting new balls. Courts are on the clay courts they're bumpy. Um the the lines on the clay courts are plastic so they're can be raised. So sometimes the quartz flat and then you've got this dip on the lines. Um if you go out to places in Turkey, they're pretty bad.

79:22 That's why you've got to get through it 18 months. Get out the other side cuz you don't want to get stuck there. When you're on the tour, you're okay. >> Just fine. >> We've talked about the top guys and how great they were. Can't say Chilich as well because you kind of answered this, but who's next? Who do you think was the most underappreciated player from your playing time? >> Underappreciated. Wow. Uh that's that's yeah, it's a really hard one. one guy uh Bas Villi he's probably not underappreciated but he was one guy that I played when he was playing well I felt it was impossible to play him because his game styles he hits the ball so hard 100 miles an hour every shot ground strokes there's just no backing off of course his modern forever small but sometimes you'd turn up to events and it would just be his week and he'd be feeling it he'd be seeing the ball so big. I played him once in uh Beijing and I was very few times was on court I was like what I don't know what to do. I'm I'm playing with no structure. I'm just reacting to him. Yeah, it's a horrible feeling but there's very few times where I'm on court and I had that feeling and that one of them was with him.

80:35 >> If you could change the structure of the tennis calendar, how would you change it? >> Uh so this is like a real life thing as well. I would like a a master series on grass that they don't have. So, I'd like a master series in the UK, which is maybe something in the future, but that probably means you have to chop and change some of either side of the grass season with the hard courts afterwards.

81:03 Um, players want it shorter. I don't know how it's going to get shorter with everything. The only thing I would like to change, not from a counter point of view, is I don't want a 5minute warm-up. think get rid of the fiveminute warm up at the start of the match. Go on to court, spin and you play because it happens everywhere else in like football, rugby, they warm up before, but they come out and they go. Golf, you've got your tea time. You can do what you want before to get ready, but as soon as the tea time comes, you're playing. I think when you walk out on court, put your bag down, rack it out, spin at the net, the umpire, and it's like we're going um I think there's also a statistic where people turn over in those five minutes quite a lot as well cuz they lose interest in so I just would like to see that happen. Players will push back on it 100%. But I think do it interesting. Sorry.

81:57 >> Why is it there? Is it just >> Why is it It's been there forever. No one knows any different. Everyone knows you go and have a four or five minute warm-up. There's probably just an old school thing where back in the day they probably didn't even do all the warm-ups before like the physical, the physio, the 30 minutes on the practice courts. Probably didn't do any of that. They probably just literally took out and this is our warmup. So I reckon it's been like that all the way through. But I think it'd be great to walk onto center court and everyone knows like these guys are walking on in a minute's time. We're going to have play here. They're going to get their racket out, decide which side you want, what certain return, and then you're going >> tell us about paddle. We had a little chat beforehand. Uh, and I thought this was really interesting and people find it fascinating. There'll be the automatic assumption of, oh, Kyle's like top tennis player. Must be unbelievable at paddle.

82:53 What is the difference between you going onto a paddle court and how you've trained yourself to play tennis? >> So paddle is, yeah, we were saying way way more social and easier to play. Uh it's actually fascinating. Um Tony Nadal, he thinks tennis should be played with shorter rackets, smaller rackets because it's easier to play with shorter rackets. So he thinks people get into the game more with shorter rackets. And obviously paddle is a is a smaller bat.

83:24 So that that's from one point of view it's more socialable. It's more fun. Even though I'm tennis, I actually found it more fun playing paddle. Uh but the tactics wise is opposite in terms of you are hitting off a glass which is totally alien to me. Um and sometimes I look like a complete fool. Like I don't know what I'm doing with the glass. Like I get all tied up. Sometimes I even hit I hit my leg once trying to get out of the way which is embarrassing. Um but the the glass angles um and all the time you're obviously trying to die the ball take pace off the ball and paddle. In tennis you're trying to probably add speed to hurt your opponent. So it's very similar and obviously the hitting the ball is easy but the tactics take take a bit getting used to.

84:10 >> Final one. Sa Alcarez. Who do you support? >> Alcarz. Yeah. Why? >> There's nothing I so sin is a really nice guy and I've spoken to in the past, but I don't know. I just watch Alcraz and enjoy watching a bit more. And uh yeah, we used to have the same agents, so we we knew each other quite well, but I just I go for nothing personal. I guess you got to subconsciously choose one, don't you? But I would be taking S's results right now. There's no doubt.

84:44 >> Who would you like from their styles? Who would you be better playing against? >> Neither. Yeah. No, they're they're playing like top level. I played Sinner a couple times in Australia when I used my protected ranking back from my knee uh and I lost first round straight open to him. But he is also similar to Jovovic in terms of it doesn't matter where he's on the court, he has the ability to hit over the ball like straight back. So if he's in the middle of the court, he hits a big shot. If he's in the corner, he can hit it back.

85:17 You don't get any weak stuff from him. Uh, and he moves incredibly well. Like, he doesn't look that physically strong or intimidating, but he's he's very strong in in his movement. >> Do you think uh end of 20 years time, end of their careers, who do you think has more slams, and do you think either of them will get to a Jovich 24 level? I mean, I'd say no cuz that that's that's freakish 24, but it feels like at the minute there's only two of them that can win. So, they're actually only just taking off each other rather than four people. So, in theory, they Yeah, there's a good chance. And I think it's just going to keep racking up and up, get to double digits, then you start looking down the line more. Honestly, I I don't know, but I'll I'll just go Alcraz. Is he got two more at the minute or >> I think so.

86:09 >> He's got six >> five. 6'4, isn't it? 65. 64 or 65. Yeah. >> So, the other thing is maybe physically as well, how how long they can cope. Um, >> yeah. >> Amazing. >> You've been such a star. Thank you so much for doing this with us. >> Thank you. No, it's great. Thanks for having me, guys.